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Author Topic: New with some questions about Scotland & Massages  (Read 5004 times)

Celestia

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New with some questions about Scotland & Massages
« on: 17 December 2010, 06:02:06 am »
Hi everyone,

I've been reading a bit and finally registered on the site to post and become part of the community. I'm an American living in Glasgow for at least a year for grad school. Although, depending on where the degree takes me, I may be in Europe longer. I have worked as a massage provider in the US for a couple years and would like to start doing it in Glasgow. I have some questions though I'm hoping you could help me answer.

I understand sexual services for money is legal and have read about all the illegal activities that surround it. From what I understand I should have no problem working in my own flat with my boyfriend as an out of sight body guard. He is not both profiting AND controlling my activities just protecting me if any thing got out of hand. Working for myself in my own flat in this fashion is legal, yes?

Because prostitution is legal in most EU countries, do men automatically expect that their massage can include more? I am not personally comfortable with anything more than mutual touching. My massages are all hands though I do offer a body to body segment while he is still laying on his stomach before I turn him over for the "finish." To go along with this is there any terminology used in adverts here that I should stay away from because I'd really be suggesting more. For instance I was researching prices and found something like 1 Hour session ?75 1 Hour Naturist ?90 1 Hour Body to Body ?120. Ok so clothed is 75, nude is 90, and body to body is 120. I leery of using the term body to body even though I do that for part of the time. I'm afraid they'll get the wrong idea.

Prices. Are the prices I mentioned above about standard for what I do? What about for Glasgow? I'm seeing ads on places like Vivastreet but not seeing their rates.

I'm not used to being able to be so upfront about what I do in my adverts or say on the phone. Can I really say anything in print or on the phone about my services without getting in trouble? What about Gumtree? Can I safely suggest my services with out openly saying in papers that are pressured against publishing our types of services?

My biggest fear in all this is in reading about the raids on massage parlours. I know Glasgow has been hit hard with this. Am I in danger with the law by doing this? Even though what I do is borderline illegal in the US, I'm comfortable with the system and know all the etiquette to protect myself. I just don't want to end up in trouble with the law and risk my education, professional future, or my boyfriend's well-being.

Sorry for the long post and so many questions. Thank you so much for any replies.

xw5

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Re: New with some questions about Scotland & Massages
« Reply #1 on: 17 December 2010, 08:41:39 am »
Does your visa have any restrictions on what work you can do?

While what you are offering is legal, not all advertising spaces are happy with you being upfront about what you're actually offering. (See recent comments on Vivastreet, for example, and I suspect Gumtree will have its own hangups.) You're probably better off pointing people to your own site where you can set out your rules and services.

I think someone more local than me will be along soon for more on Glasgow...
'The Ian formerly known as SW5'. What they said: "Indispensable", "You are our best resource", and (hours later!) "I'm afraid that you're being made redundant..."

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Celestia

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Re: New with some questions about Scotland & Massages
« Reply #2 on: 18 December 2010, 07:36:29 pm »
Thank you so much for your replies! It's great to know there's someone else in town in a similar situation.

I do have a Visa which allows me to work 20 hours per week. That's probably way more clients than I could get, so I should be fine there if it ever comes up.

The info was great and so appreciated. I feel more comfortable getting started now. As far as the US, each state does have their own laws but overall it's pretty similar. I'll check a bit on Texas and send you a PM in a bit.

^_^
Celestia

xw5

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Re: New with some questions about Scotland & Massages
« Reply #3 on: 18 December 2010, 10:28:58 pm »
I do have a Visa which allows me to work 20 hours per week. That's probably way more clients than I could get, so I should be fine there if it ever comes up.

Ah, is it a 'tier 4 (general) student' visa?

That allows you to work 20 hours per week, but only for someone else: "You must not be self-employed, employed as a doctor or dentist in training (other than on a recognised Foundation Programme) or work as a professional sportsperson (including a sports coach) or as an entertainer" (http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply/infs/inf29pbsstudent#21979526)

If so, you would be breaking your visa conditions. It's unlikely anyone would care, but...
'The Ian formerly known as SW5'. What they said: "Indispensable", "You are our best resource", and (hours later!) "I'm afraid that you're being made redundant..."

Winding down YourEscortSite.com

Claudia Reina

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Re: New with some questions about Scotland & Massages
« Reply #4 on: 19 December 2010, 09:51:49 am »
Celestia, I tried to PM you but it says your inbox is full :)

Celestia

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Re: New with some questions about Scotland & Massages
« Reply #5 on: 21 December 2010, 01:59:35 am »
I'm going to check my inbox now.


Yes... student visa. How would they really know?

EmilyJones

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Re: New with some questions about Scotland & Massages
« Reply #6 on: 21 December 2010, 08:01:37 am »
I'm going to check my inbox now.

It's not really full, it's just that newbies here can only use the PM system after they've made 5 useful forum posts - you might be there now? :) (Apologies for this inconvenience but it's to stop mad people from registering just to send hate-PMs.)

Yes... student visa. How would they really know?

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what everyone says right before they get caught! But no, it's quite possible you'd get away with it - the problem is, if you don't get away with it, you need to be prepared for the consequences. It's probably best to double-check the exact details of your visa now because once you start working, you'll need to register as self-employed in order to pay tax - I'm assuming, anyway, that a student from abroad needs to do these things in the same way we do? I don't think you'll need to make NI contributions if you're here temporarily from the US but always best to check - the lovely HMRC site has tons of stuff on that and if you need to phone them, they're usually really helpful. :)
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Celestia

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Re: New with some questions about Scotland & Massages
« Reply #7 on: 23 December 2010, 06:50:00 am »
Ugh. So I can't work self-employed or as an entertainer.

So that means I can't even go work at a strip club. Working for someone else in massage is not feasible with all the parlour raids. I don't know if I could even get away with escorting for an agency. Escorts are basically adult entertainers. I don't even like the idea of working for an agency... too independent and would rather control my screening/schedule. I have been thinking about doing a bit more than massages since it is legal. I would do have done it years ago in the US if it wasn't so risky.

Basically, I'm reading I can't do the work I want to do and know I can do well while I'm in the UK. I'm pretty sure I would be subject to removal from the UK and having my Visa cancelled.

How do they check things like self-employment in the UK? Would they see my ad and randomly check up on me?Now that I know about the risk, I'm trying to assess how large of a risk it is.

Any ideas?

Thank you all so much for your help. This is a great resource!!!



Celestia

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Re: New with some questions about Scotland & Massages
« Reply #8 on: 23 December 2010, 07:04:56 am »
Nope...not even an agency.

After doing some more searching on the forum it seems agencies consider their ladies self-employed.

 :(

EmilyJones

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Re: New with some questions about Scotland & Massages
« Reply #9 on: 23 December 2010, 10:46:53 am »
Basically, I'm reading I can't do the work I want to do and know I can do well while I'm in the UK. I'm pretty sure I would be subject to removal from the UK and having my Visa cancelled.

How do they check things like self-employment in the UK? Would they see my ad and randomly check up on me?Now that I know about the risk, I'm trying to assess how large of a risk it is.

Any ideas?

I'm sorry you're coming up against so many hurdles in your search to do a day's honest and legitimate work. You're right in that agencies definitely consider the women on their books to be 100% self-employed - and if they were ever contacted by the tax and/or visa man, you can bet your life savings that they'd drop you in a second and run off into the sunset. There's no real support to be gained by joining an agency; they're just Internet-pimps (no offense meant, I'm sure lots of them have the best intentions blah blah. Just saying how it is, technically) and therefore are actually breaking UK laws themselves. If you want to work independently and freely, you're right to give agencies a clear miss.

I believe parlours and brothels etc are essentially the same as agencies here, regarding self-employed status and breaking the law etc. They're just agencies with a property that the girls work from, which makes them even more illegal as we're not supposed to work in pairs or groups. :-\

As far as I understand, the risk of working as a self-employed escort without paying tax, or without the correct visa, is a moderate one. On one hand, I'm sure sex workers break these laws all the time and get away with it. On the other hand, it only takes one person to either report you to the relevant authorities, or one employee at those places to notice you, and then you're royally stuffed - they tend to send massive tax bills (citing your working hours as 30+ a week at your hourly rates as shown on your website) that you have to somehow disprove, and I don't even know what the repercussions of going against your visa rules would be. Nothing monstrous, obviously, but likely still highly unpleasant.

So I don't think anyone here on this forum would publicly advise you to break these laws, for all the obvious reasons. Should someone wish to evaluate the aforementioned risks, however, and go ahead anyway, that's their decision and there's probably a good chance they'd be fine, albeit in an extremely precarious position (one grumpy/stalky/insane punter, or one jealous/insane fellow sex worker, and the game could be up). Someone who'd already navigated the ridiculously tricky waters of sex work in the US might already have an advantage here, except that within the biz in this country, you risk losing a lot of potential work if you're not very clear and transparent about your rates, services, etc in your advertising & phonecalls etc. The men here mostly distrust vague profiles and websites... but some would surely understand a need for that. The best thing to do might be to keep things minimal and stay alert, working only a moderate amount - or less - in order to reduce risks. Although a fear of getting arrested wouldn't be something I'd choose to take on - I get stomach cramps from stress just worrying about meeting strange men legally! - if the financial situation were serious enough, it could perhaps warrant consideration.

And I know this doesn't help much, but the ridiculous laws surrounding prostitution in this country make me angry. Again, I'm sorry you're struggling when all you want is to work in a legitimate way while funding your studies and whatnot. They should do special prossie visas! That might also help shut up all the nonsense statistics that keep getting fabricated about "thousands - no wait, MILLIONS of underage girls from [underprivileged country du jour] coming here to earn ZILLIONS of untaxed pounds EVERY DAY!" in the Daily Fail et al. >:(
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xw5

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Re: New with some questions about Scotland & Massages
« Reply #10 on: 23 December 2010, 11:45:48 am »
I doubt you would be thrown out of the country (because of the cost of doing so if nothing else: deportations don't come cheap) especially if you had been paying taxes. But this is something that could affect your ability to come here again, including if you left to visit family etc in the US before finishing your course.

I suspect your chances of someone wondering about your immigration status are increased by the way you're unlikely to have a Scottish accent, never mind a Glaswegian one.

'Umbrella companies' exist which legally employ otherwise self-employed contractors for tax and convenience reasons. Annoyingly, these tend to expect to invoice the people the contractors are working for, rather than going 'just pay in the cash, and we'll do the rest (for a fee)'. But there may be something out there that doesn't... Play up being a woman: you've got this massage business, but you can't get your pretty little head around the tax and other implications of being self-employed. Just don't mention the sex work aspect.

Oh - this 'I can't be self-employed on a student visa' issue must affect other people, so see if the student union or other student resources have anything to say.

I believe parlours and brothels etc are essentially the same as agencies here, regarding self-employed status and breaking the law etc.

Although the situation of working in a brothel fails most of the tests for self-employment (they set hours, they wouldn't be happy if you sent someone else in your place etc etc) there is a tax case on a brothel ('sauna') in Edinburgh that says they are indeed self-employed.
« Last Edit: 23 December 2010, 11:59:10 am by xw5 »
'The Ian formerly known as SW5'. What they said: "Indispensable", "You are our best resource", and (hours later!) "I'm afraid that you're being made redundant..."

Winding down YourEscortSite.com

Celestia

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Re: New with some questions about Scotland & Massages
« Reply #11 on: 23 December 2010, 04:44:26 pm »
Thanks so much for your advice. I have a lot to think about. I wasn't planning on seeing any more than a few people per week. I just don't have time for that with my studies. So, I probably could stay under the radar. However, I really enjoy living in Scotland, there's a lot about the US I'm just sick of (almost everything...land of the free drivel and lies), and I would love to someday have the chance to be granted permanent leave to stay in the UK. In order for that to happen, I cannot get in trouble in the UK. I would have to be an asset to the country to stay long term, and my degree will get me there, but not if something happens.

My accent is a dead giveaway. I've started picking up a very slight Scottish accent, only enough for my friends in the US to notice. I am often asked if I'm Canadian though. LOL

Great idea about talking to a student union. I'm sure they've deal with things like this before.

At the end of the day I would be happy paying taxes if the government would let me since I would be very happy to finally be doing this kind of work legally!

Thanks again!