Hi I have just viewed it this morning , funny you should mention that, it was quite interesting though I wouldn't want to work there.
they do seem under pressure and as glamorous as it appears to be , what really goes on behind closed doors eh. 

I take all such statistic with a huge pinch of salt. There's no real way of quantifying these things - it's not like sales of new iPhones or something trackable like that - and so somebody just makes them up to suit their own agenda.

I thought the program was rather depressing. The girls have to pay to work in the club and pay a daily flat tax to the government (is that the entire tax they are expected to pay on their income?) and some of them pay to sleep in the dorms. They start each shift 127 euros in the hole. And according to an article I read by the maker of the program, the price of sex is about 50 euros "and falling."

They are flooded by poor women from impoverished countries, which drives prices down. Proponents of the changes in the laws had ideas that there would be worker contracts, etc. But that's not happening. Instead, girls are being charged to work. Based on what I saw in the main branch, the owners made the bulk of their money from charging the girls their entry fees as they outnumbered the punters. If the place was busy and their incomes were higher, I would expect management to raise their rents. The bulk of what is being supplied by the punters is supplied by the house: the food, showers and sauna, rooms to fuck in. The girls are just there as the honey bait and all they supply is relatively cheap human flesh. They will never command the lion's share of the revenue.

The blonde girl - the student - seemed pretty alright. She sounded like one of us - maybe a bit damaged but generally on top of her life and doing what she wants to do. The other girl, the one from the Romanian orphanage, was much sadder. My twitter feed is full of sexwork activists saying it's all a bunch of bullshit sob stories but I don't think so. I do think these stories are probably pretty accurate and common.

I'm very lucky in that I am an independent. I'm educated. I present as "normal" to the straight world and can provide all the necessary documents to rent a flat, get a car loan, etc. Luckily, there are still enough punters who care about being with a woman who clearly enjoys her job that I can make good money for what is barely more than unskilled physical labour. True, doing what I do at the level I do requires some maturity and the ability to organise, communicate well, etc. But a brothel removes a lot of that.

I think the laws as they are in the UK now are pretty good. I would like it to be legal for two girls to share an incall location, but as it is, such venues are rarely harassed. I would not like to see a situation where a corporate chain could come in and turn us into cheap labour.

I wonder how independent providers like us are doing in Germany? Are they still commanding high prices from discerning punters?

Just finished it, and they suggested there were 100,000 prostitutes in the UK, so that's two punts per day for each of us! But agree the stats are virtually impossible to obtain accurately.

I also found it pretty depressing. I know the girls from poor countries can earn a lot of money, but at what cost to them? And what sort of impact do they have on clients and their impressions of us, if e.g. they can barely speak English and provide a crap service because they don't really want to be doing the job? I also get a bit annoyed that the issues of a naive, young girl from a less developed nation can be transferred to someone like me, who in her 40s decided entirely independently and willingly to take up the world's oldest profession. It just propogates the idea that we're all 'damaged' somehow, which IMHO is bollocks.

If I was PM I don't think I'd allow mega brothels, but up to say four WGs working from a premises at any one time, for safety.  I'd also maybe argue that the minimum legal age for a non-UK prostitute should be 21, to cut down on the potential abuse of vulnerable teenagers by pimps. But how to police anything like that??

I think it would be impossible to police and if open brothels were allowed, then someone like the management at Paradise would find a way around the rules on however many girls in one premises... perhaps leasing several flats in one building from another (perhaps shell) entity but all branded the same and managed the same. The branding is important to a mega brothel chain like Paradise.

I don't think pimping can ever be eradicated. I think the definition of "pimp" is so vague. From what I've seen, most of the real damage comes in the form of emotionally abusive "boyfriends" or men who otherwise coerce vulnerable women to work and give them their money. Someone running a massage parlour is also a pimp but I have worked for one and was absolutely delighted with the arrangement. (This was in America where I kept the majority of the money spent by pimps for myself and had full autonomy on what I did and the prices I charged.) In fact, a situation like Paradise - where a girl pays rent per day to work - isn't necessarily a bad one. Plenty of us rent rooms to one another and it's essentially the same thing.

I think comments like this are stigmatising to sex workers who don't perhaps command the same level of priviledge as non-migrant, priviledged, or 'normative' sex workers do. I don't think it's useful to be divisive and draw lines between 'us' and 'them', because those are two binary terms that don't really have much value and are really entrenched in radical feminist and 'saviour' discourses. "We're fine, but those other workers aren't" is rooted in respectability politics and it doesn't help any of us. (Did anyone see the video of the pornstar Lisa Ann condemning prostitutes this week? Throwing another sex worker under the bus doesn't do anything but create a whorearchy that is damaging to all sex workers.)

I think i's also important to note the difference between legalisation and decriminalisation in regard to prostitution laws. Legalalised prostitution has many regulations around it and often it isn't the best for sex workers who aren't as priviledged as others - they may not be able to comply with all the regulations, yet if it's the only way in which they have to make oney (survival sex work) then they'll be forced to work illegally. On the other hand full decriminalisation of prostitution, as in New Zealand, has a proven record of improving health and safety. (see http://www.  justice.govt.nz/policy/commercial-property-and-regulatory/prostitution/prostitution-law-review-committee/publications/plrc-report/documents/report.pdf)

Do I think that I possess as a human being greater moral worth than a woman who is forced into doing sexwork out of financial desperation when she does not really want to do it? No.

But I do think that there are differences between the various categories of sex workers, due to the motivations of each of them. Kay and I are both middle-aged women who decided to do this. This makes our concerns and what we want from the law or support groups different from someone who is coerced, forced, or somehow desperate and therefor engages in work that she does not like. When I watched the program I was not happy to see a society adopt the idea that it's perfectly normal and acceptable to stroll into a place that looks like a spa/nightclub and feel entitled to have cheap sex with a steady supply of young girls.

From a selfish, protectionist POV, much of my concern about a system like Germany's would have much in common with any unskilled labourer who sees their wages being lowered by competition from cheaper labour. In this geopolitical situation, that would be down to immigration from poorer countries. But it's not really xenophobia: I would feel the same way if the government were to bring back work houses, but in the form of brothels.

As much as I would like to see more people understand that prostitutes are really not freaks and that what we do is real work, I acknowledge that the stigma of sexwork is what makes it pay so well. If there were no stigma or danger, then far more women would be willing to do it (or would perhaps be expected to do it by their Job Centre) and there would be little money in it. Much of what we make is risk pay and punters pay it due to scarcity.

Well I guess I'm worth less because I'm an 18 year old EU immigrant that's doing this so she can live comfortably and pay for her PhD. I don't think changing the "minimum age" for non-UK escorts to 21 is going to change a damn thing, especially as so many are trafficked and still over 21, but it will sure as hell make life a lot harder for people like me. And to refer to the above comment about being expected to do it by the Job Centre - I can confirm that kind of thing is already happening, if they ever find out you considered it as an option/did it before, they will immediately stop feeling any sympathy (if it was there in the first place) because they have it in their heads that you can always/will always want to go back. Thankfully I am in a far better position than those who are truly forced, and I do to a large extent enjoy multiple facets of this job, but I don't appreciate the idea that because I'm young, an immigrant, and yes wouldn't have considered this if I was in a better financial position, I am somehow lesser and that laws should be put in place to bar me from working. Please also remember that the current immigration laws in existence make no exception for those of us who have been brought up here since they were babies and couldn't possibly go back to their "home" countries because they can't even speak the language. That is also my situation and the situation of many low-income second gen EU immigrants who are now essentially stateless because neither country wants them. I can't say that prostitution is a popular choice among them, but it made sense for me. More immigrant-restrictions would continue to ignore this bracket of people that had no choice in coming here.

OOOH i missed this, of to catch it on OD.

Quote from: KayHerts on 30 January 2015, 01:15:10 pm

Just finished it, and they suggested there were 100,000 prostitutes in the UK, so that's two punts per day for each of us! But agree the stats are virtually impossible to obtain accurately.

I also found it pretty depressing. I know the girls from poor countries can earn a lot of money,  but at what cost to them? And what sort of impact do they have on clients and their impressions of us, if e.g. they can barely speak English and provide a crap service because they don't really want to be doing the job? I also get a bit annoyed that the issues of a naive, young girl from a less developed nation can be transferred to someone like me, who in her 40s decided entirely independently and willingly to take up the world's oldest profession. It just propogates the idea that we're all 'damaged' somehow, which IMHO is bollocks.

If I was PM I don't think I'd allow mega brothels, but up to say four WGs working from a premises at any one time, for safety.  I'd also maybe argue that the minimum legal age for a non-UK prostitute should be 21, to cut down on the potential abuse of vulnerable teenagers by pimps. But how to police anything like that??

I have watched it as well. You've mentioned that the girls can barely speak English? Because it's based in Germany, most punters will be German right?

I think she just means the girls it talked about who come from other countries and don't speak the language of the country they're in that well, or just that they can't communicate that well with punters. We all know it's common for a large group of working girls from other countries to be unable to communicate with their punters