SAAFE forum
Adverts => Spamming in the Lion's Den => Topic started by: JamesE on 16 September 2015, 12:32:44 pm
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Hello everyone,
I am part of an organisation that is looking at ways to revamp the prostitution industry in this country.
We are wanting to conduct some research through speaking to escorts and clients to hear your views on your current experiences of providing or using these services. We also want to know your opinions on some of the ideas we have to make this age old profession as safe and socially conscientious as possible for all.
If you are interested please drop me an email at: mail@jamesesses.com.
Thank you in advance!
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Then you can identify this organisation and describe it's objectives, and explain how/on behalf on whom you intend to 'revamp' UK prostitution. You will also tell us who is responsible for supervising this research, please. The Hotmail address you've used to register doesn't give much away.
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Hello Amy,
Thanks for the reply! I am personally leading a new start-up business in the UK. The aim is to create a website/app that helps to bring escorting to a much wider market but to ensure both the financial and physical safety of the escorts in the process.
I am of the opinion that this is an age-old industry that will always exist but that we should make it as modern, accessible and secure as possible.
There are a number of functional and safety features I am thinking of implementing that I would particularly like to gauge some views on before going ahead and creating the design.
If anyone would be willing to help I would love to meet up, grab a coffee and I could run my idea past you and you could let me know your thoughts, opinions, critiques, etc.
I won't take up much of your time, am happy to work around your schedule and will of course treat you to the most expensive coffee and cake on the menu to thank you for your assistance!!
Any help would be greatly appreciated :)
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I won't take up much of your time, am happy to work around your schedule and will of course treat you to the most expensive coffee and cake on the menu to thank you for your assistance!!
The average we charge is around ?100 an hour. I don't think that means much to us.
But onto your actual credentials, can I ask if you've had any experience working in the industry? I am a big believer in sex worker led initiatives rather than those conducted by clueless outsiders.
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And moved to the correct section.
James, as VR says above we're not here to do your halfarsed market research for you for free. Please be clear as to what your questions are, post them here and then if anybody has time they can answer them.
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That would have to be one expensive coffee..!! And as I don't drink coffee it would have to be something else expensive ;)
But as I still don't really understand what you're trying to revamp or research I think I'll pass.. Thanks.
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Hi James
So what is it you are trying to do exactly? You say you want to launch a website and an app but also that you want to revise the industry and make it more socially acceptable?
Can you be a bit more specific please?
CG
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I'm flummoxed too. Also, presumably you're not going to launch as a non-profit organisation...?
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Then you can identify this organisation and describe it's objectives, and explain how/on behalf on whom you intend to 'revamp' UK prostitution. You will also tell us who is responsible for supervising this research, please. The Hotmail address you've used to register doesn't give much away.
James, you haven't addressed the points in Amy's email. If you are serious, please do so.
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Me thinks this guys just wants to take escorts to Starbucks. He sounds a bit like an "escort groupie" ;D
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I agree. Why can't any of this be discussed here on an open sex workers forum? Why do you need to meet us in person?
Surely the wide range of views we can express in numbers on here is better than taking up our expensive time meeting just a couple of escorts in person...
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I agree. Why can't any of this be discussed here on an open sex workers forum? Why do you need to meet us in person?
Surely the wide range of views we can express in numbers on here is better than taking up our expensive time meeting just a couple of escorts in person...
Exactly this.
I notice James hasn't logged in since answering Amy so doesn't seem to be too interested in what we are saying, but just in case he does......if this is genuine you should really just tell us what it's all about.
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Hello everyone,
Thanks for responding!
I will set out below exactly what this is all about (but be warned it's quite a mouthful!).
From the outset this is a business proposal. However, I have some key social aims for it as well.
In essence what I have created is the Tinder/Uber of Escorting and Prostitution in the UK. To see something similar check out a German website called 'Peppr' (though I feel what they have created has a lot of flaws and is too tacky!).
From the outset I realise this will cause controversy and that it is a sensitive area. However, prostitution has been around since the beginning of time, will always continue to exist and so I want to create the safest and most socially conscientious form possible.
I want this 'app' to act as a middleman between clients and providers. It is not pimping and there is no form of control involved. The escorts:
Create their own profiles.
Set their own prices.
Offer whatever services they wish (whether sexual or non sexual).
Choose whether to accept any client that puts forward an offer.
Whilst there are many escort agencies and directories online, I feel these are flawed. They can be tacky and cheap. They are difficult to navigate and aesthetically are awful. There is also something quite seedy and taboo about them which means that they are failing to attract a large chunk of the public. This is why more and more escorts are turning to creating their own websites.
I feel this app is the perfect opportunity for truly self-employed escorts to reach a wider client base. And by adding certain functions, making it look slick and respectable and even just the fact that it is in an 'app' form, will, I hope, make the idea of using an escort far more socially acceptable and encourage far more people (especially younger generations) to try it out.
The following are the functions for the app and the benefits I feel they hold:
All escorts that wish to sign up go through a very easy phone interview to confirm that they are truly self employed and are not involved in this line of work through duress or pressure from someone else (Obviously this isn't a perfect method but it goes towards trying to ensure that the providers are doing this of their own free will).
A slick and easy to use filter system for clients to search for exactly what services they want. This would include searching via location, seeing who is "available and online" (in a Tinder style) near to them and all the usual filters in terms of services offered and physical appearance.
An "offer and acceptance system". The client makes an offer for a booking and the provider must accept this.
Communication. This can be done through 2 ways:
In-built text messaging system OR
A telephone call using phone number randomisation software. When you use uber and you contact the driver or they contact you, you never
actually have each other's phone number. There is software which puts you through to them via the app without showing you their number and meaning you could never try and contact them again after the transaction. By using this in the app, escorts can call and vet clients as usual while maintaining privacy.
An electronic payment system. Any payment is made electronically and is paid over as the booking is made. These are completely cashless transactions. This helps to ensure that there are no issues regarding payment and provides financial security to both parties. There will also be the chance for providers to supply discount codes to loyal clients for example.
Panic Button-A red button on the app for the escort. It will have a link directly through to the police (or an individual of your choosing) to say that you are in trouble and need help. Again, whilst not perfect, it adds some level of added security.
In built privacy protection at every stage to ensure all details of both client and provider cannot be accessed by anyone.
Ratings and Reviews: At the end of the meeting, the escort can rate (out of 5 stars) and review the client in detail. This information will not be accessible by the client but will be able to be seen by all other escorts when deciding whether to accept an offer from this individual. Again, this is trying to put wellbeing and safety first. The clients will also have an opportunity to rate and review the escort.
In-app safety information for clients and escorts. This includes safe-sex practise. Also, there will be no opportunity for providers to offer or for clients to request unprotected sex via the app.
A percentage of the profits will be donated to anti-human trafficking charities.
The app is completely free to use for both clients and escorts and there is no membership or joining fee.
From all of this, the app would take a booking fee, which is a cut from the overall price charged by the escort. Uber takes up to 25% from their drivers. I was considering 5-10%, which to my mind is a lot less than escorts have to pay over in massage parlours, saunas, brothels etc,
I feel the app can substantially increase business for self-employed escorts whilst allowing them to retain control over absolutely everything.
I am sure some of you won't approve but I ask that if you are against this please don't have a "go" at me! I'm not trying to wind up or upset anyway. I'm just very passionate about this and what to see where it goes and feedback would be extremely helpful. :)
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James, I'm a bit concerned about why exactly you're so passionate about profiting from prostitution? Again, is it an industry you have worked in before? Or are you simply a client with a "bright idea" for how to turn the tables? And how would you define a prostitution going through "duress"? I got into this at the start because I was homeless at the time and desperate for money, would you turn me down on that basis?
I'm not even going to describe how bad the idea of an in-built payment system in this work is, we've been over that before and I'll let someone else explain it (clue: if the client cancels, or CLAIMS that they've cancelled).
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I have never worked in this industry but it has always fascinated me.
I'm actually a Criminal Defence Barrister.
I think that the escort industry is brilliant and I'm a big campaigner to have the criminal laws changed in this country because I fear it does hinder you all.
I feel prostitution will be around until the end of time and so why not make it as safe and modern as possible. That's all :)
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Thanks for addressing my other points.... Oh and how the fuck are we going to screen clients without having their numbers? You would render the National Ugly Mugs project completely useless? Duh. You have actually REDUCED safety in that regard.
ETA: The reason I'm making my own website isn't because the alternatives are seedy, it's because I like the idea of having my own website to rely on in case AW takes my profile down. Maybe stop trying to assume you know how we think yeah?
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What exactly does this mean?
Can the client propose a price?
...'Choose whether to accept any client that puts forward an offer'
Not sure exactly what this means?
Is the escort obliged to accept an offer?
...'An "offer and acceptance system". The client makes an offer for a booking and the provider must accept this.'
I need clients number for my records and security.
How do I report a bad client without a number?
I wont accept non cash payment
I have 999 on speed dial
I will no longer join review sites
Clients will ask for safe unsafe sex in person and not be held back by a dissaproving App.
I refuse to give anyone a percentage of my earnings.
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I think he just means they make contact with us as he did say we set our own prices, but I echo your other points. He seems to be relying on something bad actually happening before we can report the client and have it show up for other escorts, meaning that the existing thousands and thousands of unsafe numbers that are already reported are totally erased from this kind of service because we can't see them and check they don't appear on the dodgy punter lists, so chances are all those men not getting any bookings because they're known about and well documented will move to this app because they have complete anonymity again. But hey, as long as James here gets his 5-10%!
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There is no way I or my clients would be happy with electronic only payments... big payments on their bank statements are not discreet.
You're not charging as a directory, but charging per booking which makes you an agency and profiting from prostitution (making you a pimp). Also you give us no ability to screen our clients by checking their number with the likes of ugly mugs.
In my opinion you're just trying to make an adultwork app but trying to profit off the one thing adultwork don't... escort bookings.
My final curiosity on this, is why on earth do you need to meet with escorts in person about this? You don't sound like someone trying to help, you sound like a tech savvy pimp.
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Thank you for all the responses so far, I appreciate how honest you're all being.
I would say I'm probably getting a bit of a hard time from you all and a lot of assumptions are being made about me, which is slightly unfair.
If you don't like the idea, that's completely fine and I really plan to take on board everything you all say.
I'm really just a person who has realised how lucrative this industry is (as all of you certainly have) and have come to the conclusion that I could offer something a bit new and different whilst trying to make it all a bit more safe and secure. I'm not a bad person and I'm certainly n
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*certainly not a pimp :)
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James, notice that you are repeatedly avoiding addressing our concerns? You blatantly do not have our safety at heart if you're literally erasing the purpose of Ugly Mugs. We have on numerous occasions asked you questions and you are refusing to address them. That's not looking good for you.
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I take on board the Ugly Mugs point completely. Potentially if it was simply that the punters would not have access to your number at any stage but you could view yours
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*certainly not a pimp :)
Unfortunately you want to take 10% of fees per booking, which is controlling for financial gain. As a barrister I would assume you would know that. :)
Not one for me, I'd never accept with held numbers, electronic payments or giving someone 10% of my earnings.
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Also one thing I did wonder about Ugly Mugs is that it's so simple in the modern age to chop and change phone numbers on a whim. How do you all combat this?
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I can only echo what the others have said.
For me the main flaws are:
a). Electronic payments: the vast majority of clients don't want to leave an electronic trail, and likewise many SWs don't like to give their official details to anyone they don't trust 100%. The only people besides friends who know my real name and that I'm escort are my accountants. There is a reason it's predominantly a cash-only business.
b). Screening: I never, ever book someone without speaking to them on the phone first, the only exception being deaf men, in which case they'd need to answer questions by email or text until I was sure they were legit.
Some sort of improved app for finding escorts wouldn't hurt but I don't think you've thought through the practical and legal implications.
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I'm just sitting here waiting for Amy at this point!
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I completely take your point about the electronic transactions.
Do you not think though that to keep up with modern times and attract newer generations it may help?
Also that it can stop escorts being swindled out of cash they deserve?
And as regards the paper trail, many people nowadays make electronic purchases for things they don't want others to find out about and you can easily hide things from bank statements, etc.
And I think there's some confusion. Vetting is crucial. Which is why I want to use the phone number randomisation software to ensure that the escorts can have a phone call with the potential punter through the app without the punter actually knowing their phone number
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Also one thing I did wonder about Ugly Mugs is that it's so simple in the modern age to chop and change phone numbers on a whim. How do you all combat this?
Obviously that happens but for the most part is does serve to help us as the idea is that they usually don't know that they've been reported. I've avoided a lot of potentially extremely dangerous bookings by finding numbers both reported on this forum and on UM. People will find a way to make a new profile on your nifty little app as well if an escort lets onto them that they've been reported, same as with the old AW notes feature. Don't think you know this business better than us, you don't. You know who could really do an app like this well? An actual fucking sex worker. And if you knew anything about anything you'd know that UM has more functions than just the number check system. As for the electronic payments... What if they say that they've cancelled and try to take the money back? How will you know for sure? And every other point made? Honestly it sounds like this app is a total dream for people that like to con us. Great job, James! Hey, here's an idea: If you want to make money from this industry, sign up to a male escort site and start working yourself. :-*
And that'll be enough from me, see you all on the other side!
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Read the threads on here. Our phone numbers do not come close to a safety concern for any of us as we have work phones. And no, this is and likely always will be a cash business because of what it is. It will never move onto electronic payments. As for attracting different generations, young guys can take cash out too. Married guys do not want ?100's to a random company that can be googled by their wives on their bank statements.
You still haven't explained why you need to meet with us in person either.
You want to milk the cash cow that is escorts, that's all this is. Your claim of 'safety' is merely your way of trying to sell it to us to make your cash.
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I don't care if clients have my number.
What's the matter with that?
I pick up and ignore when I want.
If you vanish what happens to the
client base I built up via your App?
'Newer generations' from 18 up seem to find their way to us adequately without confusion or distress.
...'Do you not think though that to keep up with modern times and attract newer generations it may help?'
Who exactly is swindled and how?
...'Also that it can stop escorts being swindled out of cash they deserve?'
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I think that its a good idea in parts but I want cash not bank transfer and agree that I'd like to have a phone number, how else would I block a client if they could just keep calling me from a randomised number?
The biggest issue that I have however, is your want for making prostitution seem 'trendy'. I would not recommend prostitution to ANYONE. I love my job, but it isn't the safest (in terms of clients and being outed) and it can also affect mental health quite drastically. It just isn't for everyone, and to treat it as though it's tinder or something such like, just isn't right to me.
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Thank you for all the responses so far, I appreciate how honest you're all being.
I would say I'm probably getting a bit of a hard time from you all and a lot of assumptions are being made about me, which is slightly unfair.
If you don't like the idea, that's completely fine and I really plan to take on board everything you all say.
I'm really just a person who has realised how lucrative this industry is (as all of you certainly have) and have come to the conclusion that I could offer something a bit new and different whilst trying to make it all a bit more safe and secure. I'm not a bad person and I'm certainly n
It's a shame that you don't seem to be responding in the same spirit. You still haven't provided the details Amy requested - why not? If you provided bona fide details about your company, and I don't see why you shouldn't, then you may receive a more positive response on here.
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Hi Miranda,
The reason I haven't responded to that is because there isn't much to say. I am currently practising as a criminal law barrister as I mentioned before. This business idea is nothing more than an idea at present and no business has actually been set up. I really just wanted to get some feedback before I actually have a go at making this work :)
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From the info you've given James, it's not a service I'd be interested in. I need the client's phone number for my own peace of mind and I only deal in cash.
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I completely take your point about the electronic transactions.
Do you not think though that to keep up with modern times and attract newer generations it may help?
Also that it can stop escorts being swindled out of cash they deserve?
And as regards the paper trail, many people nowadays make electronic purchases for things they don't want others to find out about and you can easily hide things from bank statements, etc.
And I think there's some confusion. Vetting is crucial. Which is why I want to use the phone number randomisation software to ensure that the escorts can have a phone call with the potential punter through the app without the punter actually knowing their phone number
What's to stop you swindling us out of cash though if it's done electronically via your app. Adultwork steal people's profits all the time from webcam n private gallery
This isn't an attack but i refuse to believe you work in law, never mind as a criminal defence barrister if you believe that profiting from prostitution doesn't make you a pimp.
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I would never allow that to happen and if I did I would end up banged up in prison pretty fast! I want to do this entirely above board to ensure that neither myself nor the escorts and punters that use this service get into trouble.
And I most certainly am a Criminal Defence Barrister! I can post up my qualification if that would help! I've done a lot of research on the law and I am certain that this idea is completely within the law. This is nothing more than a more modern and, I like to feel, safer way of connecting punters with escorts and allowing escorts to publicise to a different market whilst remaining in full control of everything they do.
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I would never allow that to happen and if I did I would end up banged up in prison pretty fast! I want to do this entirely above board to ensure that neither myself nor the escorts and punters that use this service get into trouble.
And I most certainly am a Criminal Defence Barrister! I can post up my qualification if that would help! I've done a lot of research on the law and I am certain that this idea is completely within the law. This is nothing more than a more modern and, I like to feel, safer way of connecting punters with escorts and allowing escorts to publicise to a different market whilst remaining in full control of everything they do.
From James' earlier post: "I'm really just a person who has realised how lucrative this industry is"
I'm very confused by this as presumably, as a barrister, you must have (we suppose) at the very least a strong working knowledge of the law. Therefore, you must know that "controlling prostitution for gain" is unlawful. As this is clearly what you would be doing by setting up the app that you propose, how on earth can you reconcile this with working as a barrister (assuming you do)? The whole idea is preposterous and would get you barred! Working as a barrister whilst pimping on the side? (which is what "controlling prostitution for gain" is commonly known as)?! Absolute rubbish.
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I would never allow that to happen and if I did I would end up banged up in prison pretty fast! I want to do this entirely above board to ensure that neither myself nor the escorts and punters that use this service get into trouble.
Then I suggest you familiarise yourself with the 2003 Sexual Offences Act, specifically Section 53 - Controlling prostitution for gain. As a third party taking direct payment (gain) for arranging meetings between prostitutes and punters (control), that's exactly what you are doing. There's no question of either us or our clients 'getting into trouble' because unlike you, we're not breaking the law.
I haven't read the whole thing because I'm so sick to death of these clueless punters idiots and their next big idea That Will Change Our Lives that I literally cannot sit through another one, but James, has it not occurred to you yet that now might be a good time to put the spade down? Why is it that this endless stream of people all think we're so dumb that we need total outsiders to bowl up and tell us that we're doing it all wrong and they can organise how we do our jobs better than we can, despite all the evidence to contrary?
I don't turn up on a builders forum and tell them I've come up with a better way to lay foundations than anything they can do because I've had a look round Wickes and done a bit of internet research and watched every episode ever of Grand Designs. What the fuck is the matter with you all? Has it occurred to you to try and come with something that we can't do by ourselves and might actually need some help with? No, of course not, because there isn't anything and that's the bit you can't stand, isn't it?
Anybody who wants to see the credentials incidentally, just Google the email address given in the first post.
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Well fucking said Amy. There really is nothing more to be said on the matter. Amy has put it quite elequently.
P.S I wouldn't put my business in the hands of someone voting UKIP. Just my personal preference.
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I have to say Amy I do find you and some others unnecessarily rude.
I know the law inside out and I am confident that my idea does not breach it.
I am not trying to change your lives. I don't think any of you are dumb or need help. In fact, I have a huge deal of respect for all of you and you are without a doubt some of the best entrepreneurs this country has!
I have a business idea. It involves prostitution, an area that has always fascinated me. It's not revolutionary and going to change the world. But I think it's something there is a market for and that it has some cool new ideas. I think (and certainly hope) it could benefit escorts, especially those who are truly self employed and finding it difficult to get off the ground. I think (and certainly hope) it could benefit punters, offering them an easily accessible and easy to use system. That's it :)
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I think Amy has encapsulated the reasons for why we can come across as rude to those like yourself.
But please, if you're going to continue digging, explain how your app would not be illegal re. controlling prostitution for gain?
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Yes I don't think your idea has any weight (or your claims to be a barrister) if you're not able to explain how you would not be breaching any laws?
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James, given your demonstrated knowledge of criminal law in this forum I would never hire you as a lawyer, and given your demonstrated knowledge of the sex industry even less as a pimp.
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Also: A little business advice here (from someone who has succesfully run her own business for 17 years and knows a thing or two). You shouldn't be posting your real work e-mail here because any client, potential client, law frm, potential employer etc...who will google your name or e-mail address (your name is on your e-mail address) is going to reach this forum, read that you work for some "organization that wants to revamp the prostituion business in this country" , find out about your wanna-be pimp ambitions, your lack of knowledge etc...and as a criminal barrister is NOT going to look good. Nothing wrong with being an entrepeneur but not everyone is so open minded.
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Did you seriously expect any of us to agree to meet you for coffee and cake? Some clients have a nosey on here to see what we're chatting about, so imagine all the budding entrepreneurs who would emerged if any of us openly agreed to this ludicrous form of bartering. With many of us having rates of ?1-5 per minute then even the most expensive of coffee and cake wouldnt make it past the chocolate sprinkles and marshmallows stage. It'd be time to go before it's ready. So unless you're willing to pay our transparently stated fees then I doubt you'll get any takers. It's actually very rude. I'd never dream of asking you, as a barrister, to provide me with legal advice for a coffee.
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Indeed. I think it's even more offensive than the stupid, faux-chummy condescension and comments about how the prostitution industry is 'brilliant'.
At that ?1-5 per minute I think we can safely say that if the people here want cake, they can buy it.
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James I can't believe you've used your real email address and not a throwaway on here. You realise that this idea is now linked to your real world career?
If you think some people have been unnecessarily rude, it's because we get one of these posts every single week in life.
To sum it up
- Adultwork have the monopoly on this market, and they have an app already
- Prostitution isn't for everyone, I love my job but wouldn't recommend it to everyone. It's not a good way of thinking that you want to make it more accessible as a career choice
- Nobody who is independent is going to pay 10% of her earnings as a booking fee - whether it's lower than brothels and agencies is irrelevant because we made the choice not to work in one - and operating in this way truely isn't within the law, you are controlling for gain.
- We need clients phone numbers for screening and contact purposes - it's not an issue if they have ours as they aren't our real personal phone numbers
- The only acceptable payment in this industry is cash. Nobody will agree to electronic payments.
Sorry but you are trying to reinvent the wheel here when it's already been invented.
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James I can't believe you've used your real email address and not a throwaway on here. You realise that this idea is now linked to your real world career?
Anybody who may have had a moment of uncertainty as to whether its a good idea to hand over personal information allowing somebody else knowledge of or a degree of control over their privacy and/or finances might do well to take note of what a fantastic job the OP has done of protecting his own.
If you think some people have been unnecessarily rude, it's because we get one of these posts every single week in life.
Ha. Adult Call Takers must be jumping for joy that the OP came along at the perfect time to make theirs look better. Well, less crap than this anyway.
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It's a good thing I have a thick skin because you lot can certainly be vicious!
Firstly, that's not my work email address but my own private one. The reason I posted is to try and demonstrate that I have absolutely nothing to hide. I didn't post this in my capacity as a lawyer, I posted in my capacity as an individual. And to be frank I don't care who knows.
And requesting to meet up over a coffee. It was asking for a friendly favour. And you're completely wrong in your assumptions because as lawyers we often do work for other people 'pro bono'.
If you don't like my idea or what I'm trying to do that's completely fine and hearing negative feedback on aspects of it is very helpful. But please avoid throwing baseless insults at me. I'm trying to treat each and every one of you with respect and I would like the same in return :)
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Bless. Since you didn't bother to read the rules (which I'm guessing is why you first tried to post this twice and both times in the wrong section), I'll point out that the members here may critique you, your idea and your posts as we see fit. You don't get to decide, and you most certainly do not get to tell full members how to post. If you think it's 'vicious', then maybe it's time to rethink how your patronising approach and complete refusal to listen to experience and common sense might have engendered this.
In order to save everybody some time; James, your idea is a waste of space and nobody wants it. If you still think it's going to Revolutionise UK Prostitution! after four pages of actual sex workers giving up their valuable time to tell you it won't and explain at length why it won't, then there's nothing for anybody to gain here by wasting their time any further, and that includes you.
We're done here. Locked.