SAAFE forum
General Category => Questions and Answers => Topic started by: sara76 on 09 March 2007, 02:10:23 pm
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Hi there,
My first visit to this forum and I would like to ask for some legal advice and I hope some of you might be able to help.
I have escorted before. To start with as an independent and later at a parlour. There was pluses and minuses to both which I'm sure most of you know so I won't go into them now.
Now I have taken a bit of a break from sex work but I would like to get back into it. Ideally I want to be independent again as a parlour was too much like a conveyor belt of guys for me.
My dilemma is that I want to do incalls but not from my own home. I know a guy who used to be security at the last parlour I worked at who is offering me the chance to do this from his place but obviously at a price but I am happy with that price.
I sort of like this set up as it would allow me to do incalls somewhere other than my own home and the guy would be in the house (but elsewhere) in case anything happened and I kinda like that security aspect as well.
The thing I need to know is the legal aspect, not just for myself but also for the guy as I don't want to get him into trouble either.
Also if I'm honest I may not do escorting from there as I've been toying with the idea for quite a while of becoming a Mistress/Dominatrix as I really enjoyed that work when I was at the parlour.
So can anybody give me some advice on this? Both for escorting and being a Dominatrix?
Any help would be really appreciated.
Love and hugs
Sara xxxx
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I'm not too sure
but maybe he could be done for being a pimp as he is getting money from you via immoral earnings(and profiterring from prostitution)
please dont take what i have said as gospel as im a deffo no legal eagle
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Thanks Louise for the reply and that's what I was thinking really that he could done for the immoral earnings thing.
I was sort of thinking that working as a Dominatrix might be different but more wishful thinking than anything I guess.
Oh well it was a nice idea so back to the drawing board.
Thanks again for taking the time to reply.
Sara xxxx
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Hi Sara,
Welcome to the forum, happy you've found us. Although I'm also no legal eagle, I do agree with Lou in that whilst what you're doing is legal (working on your own from private premises), your friend could be done for living off immoral earnings.
And from what I've read and learnt in the past, working as a Dominatrix is a very grey area indeed. It's not actually legal, whilst being an escort is. I do both, and there is a site where I used to get all my information from to keep me up-to-date and I can't for the life of me remember what it's called. I've just had a quick google and I can't find it now, I'll have a better look tomorrow.
Where's SW5 when you need them?
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I contacted a lifestyle Domina friend of mine and she reminded me of the site I was thinking about last night. It's called The Spanner Trust. It has a couple of links to the legal side of Domination http://www.spannertrust.org/indexpage.asp?cat=6 Hope it helps.
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You're fine, as far as the escorting goes, incall or outcall.
He (or anyone else) can legally gain from your work (i.e. be paid rent or act as security) provided that they do not control your work.
(This was one of the changes in the Sexual Offences Act 2003 which got rid of the old laws often misleading referred to as the laws against 'immoral earnings'. Now, you can control someone else's prostitution, or you can gain from it, but you can't do both.)
I can see that being both the landlord and the 'person on the premises' could make it look more likely that he does control your work, so you need to be very very clear about who's in charge (you). You pay him, he provides what you paid for and the less contact he has with clients, the better, really.
If he does not own the property, but is renting it himself, he'll be breaking section 36 of the Sexual Offences Act 1956 which makes it an offence for a tenant to knowingly permit their premises to be used for "habitual prostitution", even by a single person, even though that person is not doing anything illegal. In practice, he'd have to be staggeringly unlucky to be caught by this.
As far as dominatrix work is concerned, R v Brown (i.e. the Spanner case) says consent is worse than irrelevant for injuries inflicted for sexual pleasure, if they are more than 'transient and trifling'. Hence anyone inflicting them is guilty of assault.
Lots of pro dommes make a point about saying they don't have 'sex' with clients. That's mostly trying to pretend they're not prostitutes, because these are services of a sexual nature. Selling them is legal, up to the point that you cross the Spanner line.
The basic way to avoid trouble is to make damn sure you don't cross that line. You don't want to leave marks, basically. Humiliation, bondage, pain play, watersports - fine. Hitting them with something that leaves marks for more than an annoyingly unspecified time - risky.
The good news is that lots of clients don't want to leave with marks either, due to not wanting to have to explain them away to someone.
(Isn't anyone allowed a weekend off, especially when this site was off the internet for a while during that time? :) )
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Thankyou SW5 very much for your reply.
I'm not sure whther the guy owns the house or not. I think he rents but I'll have to ask about that.
As for controlling me then he definitely wouldn't be doing that. I will decide what days I'll be working, what hours, my fees etc and even though him being in the house would give me some security, then this wouldn't always be the case as he's made it clear that on Mon, Tues and Thurs he will be out all day and it was my intention to work on maybe 2 of those days.
As for the Domintrix side then I was aware of much of what you said as I have worked as a Domintrix before in a parlour. I realise that all acts must be legal. Marks have to disappear in 10 mins, etc etc.
However I still am a little confused as to the legality as I don't want to get anyone, myself or somebody else, in trouble.
So how am I legally if I work solely as a Domintrix (no sexual services of any kind) where I stay within the law with what I do and I rent the room from the guy and he may or may not be there?
Would that be ok?
I sort of prefer the idea of working as a Domme anyway as not only did I like that work before, some escort work did get inside my head a bit hence why I had to take a break for a while.
Take Care
Sara xxxx
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(Isn't anyone allowed a weekend off, especially when this site was off the internet for a while during that time? :) )
No you can't, and blame GoDaddy. :P
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I'm not sure whther the guy owns the house or not. I think he rents but I'll have to ask about that.
As I said, he'd have to be staggeringly unlucky for anyone to care about this aspect.
I will decide what days I'll be working, what hours, my fees etc and even though him being in the house would give me some security, then this wouldn't always be the case
Yep, all that sounds good evidence that he's not controlling your work.
Marks have to disappear in 10 mins, etc etc.
One of the annoying things is that there isn't actually an exact definition of 'transient', but ten minutes is going to be ok.
So how am I legally if I work solely as a Domintrix .. where I stay within the law with what I do and I rent the room from the guy and he may or may not be there?[
Would that be ok?
Yes - and it doesn't matter whether you domme them or shag them (or indeed both).
Even if he rents the place out to someone else as well (in which case it's a brothel: illegal to own, manage or allow in a property you control), you'd be ok.
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blame GoDaddy.
Yeah, I saw someone else complain about what happened to their site, looked up who does the DNS for here and went "Ah ha, another one for the queue of angry customers!"
They've only had two years to prepare for the change in start date for summer time there...
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Thankyou once again SW5 for your very informative reply and I can't thank you enough for your help.
Could I ask you one more question?
As I said my idea is to work as a Dominatrix and rent this room. Now you have made it clear that I am ok legally but the guy could be done under section 36 of the sexual offences act 1956 for "habitual prostitution" although you also said "he would have to be staggeringly unlucky" with this.
How does that change if I only work as a Dominatrix? As I wouldn't be working as a prostitute does the "habitual prostitution" thing come into it?
I'm not just asking here because I don't want to get anybody else in trouble. What I don't want is for the guy to get charged and go to court and then for my name to be mentioned in court as the person who rented the room.
I promise that this is my last question.
Take Care
Sara xxxx
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How does that change if I only work as a Dominatrix? As I wouldn't be working as a prostitute does the "habitual prostitution" thing come into it?
One of the other things the Sexual Offences Act 2003 did was introduce a definition of "prostitution": offering or providing sexual services to another person in return for any financial arrangement.
Another section defined "sexual". Penetration, touching or any other activity is sexual if a reasonable person would consider that (a) it is because of its nature sexual, or (b) because of its nature it may be sexual and because of its circumstances or the purpose of any person in relation to it (or both) it is sexual.
The conclusion? Dominatrix work is providing sexual services for money = legally, it's 'prostitution' just as much as shagging them for money is.
(Disclaimer: as far as I can see, no case involving pro dom(me) work has ended up in court, so it's possible that some court somewhere will disagree with this, but I really can't see anyone saying that clients don't go for sexual purposes. Lawyers and judges know what they're paying for. Look at the places, like your former workplace, where domination etc is in the middle of a menu of sexual services.)
I'm not just asking here because I don't want to get anybody else in trouble. What I don't want is for the guy to get charged and go to court and then for my name to be mentioned in court as the person who rented the room.
I can't find the figures at the moment (they're somewhere with no electricty, heating, water etc, so I'm sitting somewhere else) but my memory is telling me that there's only been one case for this in the past fifteen years and there weren't many more before that. Hence the 'staggeringly unlucky' comment.
Even if he were, it's unlikely you'd be named. Does he even know your real name?
As ever the basic advice of not annoying the neighbours applies. They can't complain to anyone about something they don't know about.
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OK thanks again for providing the information and for clarifying things for me legally. All I wanted to do was go into something with my eyes completely open and not take somebody elses word for it and find out for myself as there are plenty of old wives tales in this business that many believe to be the law and I wanted to make sure.
So thanks again for taking the time to help me out as I do really appreciate it.
To answer a couple of your questions then yes he does know my real name. When I worked at the parlour and he worked as security then he went out with one of the other girls there who I was good friends with and who I used to go out for a drink with socially. He got to know my real name that way.
Lastly I take your point about not annoying the neighbours and this is something Michael has pointed out to me in that while I am free to choose my hours, fees, times I work etc etc then he wants to limit the amount of guys per day so as not to have too many coming in and out.
He also wants me not to give the address out when I make the booking and ask the guy to ring from a location I give him close by about 5 mins before and I then direct him to the place.
That way he says if the guy doesn't turn up then at least he doesn't know the address of the place.
As I said I really appreciate you going to the trouble of replying to me and helping me and I can't thank you enough.
Take care
Sara xxxx
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there are plenty of old wives tales in this business that many believe to be the law
If I hear the phrase 'immoral earnings' one more time... :)
The various things you've mentioned (like not giving out the address) sound good.
he wants to limit the amount of guys per day so as not to have too many coming in and out.
That may well be sensible, but you need to consider this when talking about the rent: there's not only the cost per day/week/month but also the cost per client to think about.
Is it possible to be charged 'by the booking', for example?
If not, you can work out how many clients it will take to pay for the space - remembering that effectively they're freebies: the money ends up in someone else's pocket.
Equally it may affect how long your minimum appointment is. If you can't have many a day, you may want longer bookings, e.g. by emphasising the lengthy bondage sessions you offer...
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We never discussed about being charged by the booking. I never sort of thought of that. We did just discuss a flat daily rate.
If I did ask about being charged per booking then would you have any idea of what a reasonable amount would be per booking?
Round here for domme stuff most other dommes are around the ?100-?125 per hour figure although I have seen another dommes website where she charges ?150 but that seems a bit excessive.
Likewise if I did go down the escorting road then most are ?100-?150 per hour depending on the service required.
Any basic idea would help so I don't get taken for a ride.
We were looking at 3-4 appointments a day max which is something we both agreed on.
I don't want more than that as I might as well go back to a parlour and have the conveyor belt start up all over again. As for the length of time then I am not going to do half hours. I will however offer 1 1/2 hours and not just the bog standard 1 hour, 2 hours, 3 hours etc etc as sometimes an hour is not long enough and 2 hours can be too long for domme stuff for some of them to handle.
As always thanks for the taking the time to reply to me.
Take care
Sara76 xxxx
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Alas, here's where we stray into the territory where I can't offer much useful advice.
I know that when landlords know you're doing sex work, you can almost hear the 'ker-ching!' in their mind: for some reason, a working flat goes for much more than the usual market rate. It's not unknown for the daily cost to be half or more of what a 'normal' place would cost for a week.
So my usual comment for people looking for somewhere to do incall is 'don't tell them!'
Here, they know and one of the reasons they know is that you want them around (at least some of the time). I've no idea how much that's worth to you.
I also don't know where you are - the market rate is going to vary from place to place.
But :) see what it would cost to rent somewhere to live around there. Ask around to see what others are paying. How much more or less than that you want to pay is up to you.
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Ok thanks again for the reply.
I have got hold of the guy who I'm looking to rent the room from and he doesn't like the idea of paying a percentage of each booking to pay for the room so it looks as though it's flat rate per day only or look elsewhere.
I may have been a bit naive about it all as well as I thought that renting the room was more of a favour to me and that he hadn't rented the room to anybody else previously but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Anyway I have the email and I have copied and pasted it below so if anybody has any opinions on it then by all means let me know what you think.
Take care
Sara xxxx
"Dear Sara,
With regards to your request to pay for the room by a percentage of each booking you have then that is a non starter.
Firstly there will be many occasions when I won't be in the house at any stage of the day so I will have no idea how many paying punters you have had in the house that day so this would be open to trust and that trust is open to abuse.
Trust me I know from experience that even the most honest of people would distort things for the own purposes.
Secondly in regards to the legal position you have taken advice about then I wouldn't rent the room on a per booking basis anyway. You say that I would be "staggering unlucky" to face prosecution for this but that threat remains and if I am going to take a chance on this then there has to be something in it for me to make it worth my while as well as your own.
Basically I am not going to break the law for loose change and if you were to pay per booking then there's a major chance that could happen as you could choose to see just one client a week if you wanted. That's good for you as it gives you flexibility but no good to me as I'd get a pittance and I get could get nicked for what amounts to just a few pounds a week and I'm not prepared to take that risk for next to nothing and that's what it could amount to.
Also remember alot of "working girls" aren't the most reliable of people. Remember at Di's parlour how many girls would cry off "ill" on a day they were supposed to work. It was nearly all rubbish as most couldn't be bothered to get out of bed that morining and had nothing to do with illness. You know this as we had the same discussion many times over when we worked together.
Renting the room on a per day basis stops all this nonsense.
The long and short of it is if you want to rent the room then I need to know what sort of income I'm going to get from it to judge whether it's worth taking the risk for and as I'll point out again it is me that's taking all the risks and not yourself.
Therefore you have been looking for a committment from me over all this and it's only fair that I need a committment from you in return for the amount of days that you want to work and you stick to them.
I'm guessing that you've got this per booking advice from other escorts and it is a totally biased view as it seems you want the dice to be completely loaded in your favour. I'm looking for something that's fair to both of us and a per day fee is faor to both and per booking is fair only to yourself.
So to answer your question then it's definitely a no on the per booking basis and per day only.
If this suits you and you still want to go ahead then fine. If it doesn't then no problem we'll leave things as they are and take it no further and I wish you all the best for the future.
Regards
Mike S#########"
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He probably could have worded it a bit better but I get what he is saying.
A lower volume lady, say one who does 5/10 bookings a month, will suit the per booking deal especially if they dont work every week. There are people who will rent on this basis but I'd guess they are more likely to be working girls who have their own place and want a little extra income but dont want lots of people in and out of the flat on a daily basis as that may draw the unwanted attention of the neighbours.
Personally I'd rather deal with another lady especially one who is working or who has worked in the business so they understand things a bit better and perhaps wouldn't see what is good advice to an escort as a "totally bias view".
Perhaps you could write to a few ladies in your area who appear to have their own incall place and ask them if they would be willing to let you use the place.
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Personally I'd rather deal with another lady especially one who is working or who has worked in the business so they understand things a bit better and perhaps wouldn't see what is good advice to an escort as a "totally bias view".
Perhaps you could write to a few ladies in your area who appear to have their own incall place and ask them if they would be willing to let you use the place.
It is true that many people do this, but the huge potential problem is that once more than one person is working somewhere, the place becomes a brothel, i.e. illegal to own or run.
In most places, no-one will care about this sort of setup.
In some, they do and the person whose flat it is can end up in trouble.
You need to think very carefully before subletting your place to anyone else.
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Ok thanks again for your replies.
I have been talking to a couple of girls who were looking to rent out rooms but I found them much harder to deal with. Too many rules, too many regulations and they wanted too much money.
One of them wanted ?100 per day and a minimum of 3 days per week and I had to pay her even if I didn't work on the days mentioned.
The other was such a hard nosed girl she even scared me a little.
Both were ex working girls and not currently working or so they told me.
The renting the room from the guy seems to have gone now as he's pulled out of it and again I include his email below.
Looks like I'll have to stick to outcalls when/if I start working again.
"Hi Sara,
Having given ths some thought then I have decided not to go ahead with renting the room to you.
The truth is we are quite a ways apart in what I want for it and what you seem prepared to pay so it's a no go.
If I can give you some advice mate then with doing incalls then why don't you just rent a hotel room for the day? You can get a Travelodge or similar for about ?50-?60 per day and if you see 4 clients then it works out to around ?15 per client.
I reckon this would be best for you as it gives you flexibility and most Travelodges or similar (unless they are roadside/motorway) have rooms during the week. The downside is that you can't check in until 2pm but some let you at 12pm if you get there early enough.
No hard feelings about all this and I hope we'll still have our chats when I see you in town.
Regards
Michael S########
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Personally I'd rather deal with another lady especially one who is working or who has worked in the business so they understand things a bit better and perhaps wouldn't see what is good advice to an escort as a "totally bias view".
Perhaps you could write to a few ladies in your area who appear to have their own incall place and ask them if they would be willing to let you use the place.
It is true that many people do this, but the huge potential problem is that once more than one person is working somewhere, the place becomes a brothel, i.e. illegal to own or run.
In most places, no-one will care about this sort of setup.
In some, they do and the person whose flat it is can end up in trouble.
You need to think very carefully before subletting your place to anyone else.
Agreed.
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Ok thanks again for your replies.
I have been talking to a couple of girls who were looking to rent out rooms but I found them much harder to deal with. Too many rules, too many regulations and they wanted too much money.
One of them wanted ?100 per day and a minimum of 3 days per week and I had to pay her even if I didn't work on the days mentioned.
The other was such a hard nosed girl she even scared me a little.
Both were ex working girls and not currently working or so they told me.
The renting the room from the guy seems to have gone now as he's pulled out of it and again I include his email below.
Looks like I'll have to stick to outcalls when/if I start working again.
"Hi Sara,
Having given ths some thought then I have decided not to go ahead with renting the room to you.
The truth is we are quite a ways apart in what I want for it and what you seem prepared to pay so it's a no go.
If I can give you some advice mate then with doing incalls then why don't you just rent a hotel room for the day? You can get a Travelodge or similar for about ?50-?60 per day and if you see 4 clients then it works out to around ?15 per client.
I reckon this would be best for you as it gives you flexibility and most Travelodges or similar (unless they are roadside/motorway) have rooms during the week. The downside is that you can't check in until 2pm but some let you at 12pm if you get there early enough.
No hard feelings about all this and I hope we'll still have our chats when I see you in town.
Regards
Michael S########
The hotel thing works for a lot of girls eszpecially if you make it a regular thing. Bookyourself in for two nights and then you get one full day plus one afternoon/evening and one morning which works well. There is an article on touring on the main site that may help:
http://www.saafe.info/touring.htm
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Ok thankyou very much to all of you that took the time to reply to me and give me advice which I really really appreciate.
I'm not really sure what I am going to do as of now as I sort of liked the idea of working as a domme but that chance appears to have gone now.
Anyway I'm going to have a good think about it all over the next 7-10 days or so and see where that takes me and I'll come back on here at some stage let you know how I get on.
Thanks again for the advice.
Take care
Sara xxxx
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I'm not really sure what I am going to do as of now as I sort of liked the idea of working as a domme but that chance appears to have gone now.
If you're thinking of going down even halfway down the 'full dungeon' route, then this was never going to have been the right option, unless he wanted a pile of equipment in the place.
There are 'outcall' pro dommes. Quite a bit of stuff fits in a sports bag.
There's also a market in accompanying people to the various fetish clubs and doing public play with them on the club's equipment.
I can't remember their names now, but there are some specialist message boards for the pro domme scene. Have a look...
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I wasn't going to go down the full dungeon route. I do have some stuff like a cross to strap them to and a caning bench that I have picked up over the years and restraints, canes, whips, paddles, strap ons that I have still got.
I would have used all these for the domme stuff if I rented the room.
I don't know about outcall domme stuff and that's something I'll have to give some thought to.
Once again thanks for the reply and for the tips/suggestions.
Take care
Sara xxxx
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Sara,
These are a couple of websites I've used in the past that may be useful to you. Complete with forums.
http://www.uk-mistresses.com/
http://www.informedconsent.co.uk/
You've received some excellent advice from SW5 there. A big thanks for taking the time.
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hello
didn't mean to re-start on this past thread but this thread did answer a lot of question I have had myself. x
sorry sarah if that arrangement with your driver friend didn't work out in the end.
my thinking process on this topic went very similar to what went on this thread throughout...
1. Daily fixed fees with a commitment of 1 day a week or no minimum requirement = flexible arrangement (ad hoc)
2 travelodge option with a bag of play accessories
3 percentage taken off your booking
could 3 be somewhat too "involved" in her escort business as if the fees are charged as her booking goes? just my thought.
think the best would be to stay flexible and pay whatever both you and the owner had mutually agreed and stick with it.
also my feeling to this subject was there's no point of hiring a room unless you have a booking to attend you know you'd go ahead with.
also seeing three a day no matter how sporadic you would do so may create a havoc in the neighbourhood unless it is in the middle of the town centre in my personal opinion. so you need to know there's no curtain twitching going on.
another thing though it's best to maintain a professional relationship on this and if the escort whoever decided to rent a room on that day wanted to bring another girl for 3 sums (then it's illegal) it's best to stick to being legal and say "no" no matter how "tolerant" the police is known to be. :-X
I don't think business and friendship would mix very well & it's important to set the boundaries such as no illegal activities such as drug taking etc.
you never know when they change their policy: best to not to be looking over the shoulder..unless you want to take that risk and accept whatever the consequences that may bring.
lastly, when you use a rented dungeon, there are certain health risks particularly there are contaminated blood stuck on equipment i.e. whips, chairs and such - I wouldn't think it's wise to put herself at such risks.