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Author Topic: Nordic Model in the UK?  (Read 524 times)

PassionFlower

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Nordic Model in the UK?
« on: 28 April 2025, 10:45:05 am »
There is a Bill working through Parliament called 'The Crime and Policing Bill' - it is in what is known as the committee stage. So the initial bill passed parliament and now committees scrutinise the bill to flesh it and add amendments. There are a series of amendments being added, these target advertising websites & clients

Quote
Commercial sexual exploitation by a third party
(1) A person commits an offence if—
(a) the person (C) assists, facilitates, controls, or incites, by any means,
another person (B) to engage in sexual activity with another person (A)
in exchange for payment or other benefit, anywhere in the world; and
(b) the circumstances are that—
(i) the person (C) knows or ought to know that the other person
(B) is engaging in sexual activity for payment; and
(ii) the person (C) assists, facilitates, controls, or incites the other
person (B) to engage in sexual activity with another person (A);
or
(iii) the person (C) causes or allows to be displayed or published,
including digitally, any advertisement in respect of activity
prohibited by section 1a and 1b(i).
(2) A person (C) commits an offence under subsection (1) regardless of whether
they secure personal financial gain, or personally benefits in any way, from
facilitating person (B) engaging in sexual activity with person (A) in exchange
for payment or other benefit.
(3) A person (D) commits an offence under subsection (1) if they knowingly secure
financial gain, or benefits in any way, from person (B) engaging in sexual
activity with person (A) in exchange for payment or other benefit, anywhere
in the world, regardless of whether person (D)facilitated the exchange between
persons B and A.
(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable—
Monday 7 April 2025 COMMITTEE STAGE 11
on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6
months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or both;
(a)
(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding
10 years.
(5) In considering the seriousness of an offence committed under subsection
(1)(b)(iii), the court must treat the following as aggravating factors—
(a) the annual financial turnover of the digital or physical platform (the
platform) used to facilitate and or advertise activity prohibited in
subsection1a and 1b(i);
(b) the number of prostitution related offences, under subsection (1),
facilitated by the platform in question; and
(c) whether the platform has facilitated trafficking for sexual exploitation.
(6) A person who is a UK national commits an offence under this section regardless
of where the offence takes place.
(7) A person who is not a UK national commits an offence under this section if
any part of the offence takes place in the UK.
(8) The Secretary of State must, within six months of the Act receiving Royal Assent,
make regulations to appoint a public body (the designated body) to monitor
and enforce compliance by online platforms with this section.
(9) Regulations made under subsection (5) may provide the designated body with
the powers, contained in section 144 of the Online Safety Act 2023, to apply
to the court for a Service Restriction Order.
(10) The designated body must, within six months of it being appointed under
regulations made by subsection (5), lay before Parliament a report outlining
its plan for monitoring compliance with, and enforcement of, the provisions
of this section of the Act.
(11) The designated body must lay before Parliament an annual report outlining
its progress in ensuring compliance with the provisions of this Act, including
information on enforcement activity relating to these provisions.”
Member's explanatory statement
This new clause would make it a criminal offence to enable or profit from the prostitution of another
person, including by operating a website hosting adverts for prostitution.

Quote
Commercial sexual exploitation
(1) A person (A) who gives, offers, or promises payment to a person (B) to engage
in sexual activity with person (A) shall be guilty of an offence.
(2) A person (A) who gives, offers, or promises payment to a person (B) to engage
in sexual activity with any other person (C) shall be guilty of an offence.
(3) For the purpose of subsections (1) and (2)—
(a) a “payment” includes money, a benefit, or any other consideration,
(b) an activity is sexual if a reasonable person would consider that—
(i) whatever its circumstances or any person’s purpose in relation
to it, it is because of its nature sexual, or
(ii) because of its nature it may be sexual and because of its
circumstances or the purpose of any person in relation to it (or
both) it is sexual,
(c) no offence is committed by a person (A) unless the sexual activity with
the other person (B) involves—
(i) the person (A or C) being in the other person (B)’s presence, and
(ii) physical contact between the person (A or C) and the other
person (B), or
(iii) the person (B) touching themselves for the sexual gratification
of the other person (A or C),
(d) it is immaterial whether the payment is given, offered, or promised by
a person (A) engaging in the sexual activity, or a third party.
(4) A person guilty of an offence under subsections (1) or (2) is liable—
(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6
months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (or both), and
Monday 7 April 2025 COMMITTEE STAGE 13
a requirement to complete an offender behaviour programme at the
offender’s expense,
(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding
10 years or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (or both).
(5) A person who is not a UK national commits an offence under subsections (1)
or (2) if any part of the offence takes place in the UK.”
Member's explanatory statement
This new clause makes it an offence to pay for, or attempt to, pay for sex either for themselves or
on behalf of others.

xw5

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Re: Nordic Model in the UK?
« Reply #1 on: 30 April 2025, 11:47:17 pm »
These are one of a bunch of amendments proposed. Some are from the government, but these two are from a bunch of backbench MPs.

As such, I don't see either of these passing, but having looked up WTF most of them are, as both Scotland and Wales feel over-represented in the list I'd wonder what will happen when they have elections for their national parliaments if Labour win...

Unless stated, all are Labour and most are new to the House of Commons.

Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower)
Tracy Gilbert (Edinburgh North And Leith)
Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Gateshead South)
Carolyn Harris (Neath and Swansea East)
Margaret Mullane (Dagenham and Rainham)
Jess Asato (Lowestoft)
Lizzi Collinge (Morecambe & Lonsdale)
Gill Furniss (Sheffield Brightside & Hillsborough)
Katrina Murray (Cumbernauld and Kirkintilloch)
Lillian Jones (Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
David Smith (North Northumberland)
Joani Reid (East Kilbride and Strathaven)
Euan Stainbank (Falkirk)
Jo White (Bassetlaw)
Johanna Baxter (Paisley and Renfrewshire South)
Jonathan Hinder (Pendle and Clitheroe)
Dr Scott Arthur (Edinburgh South West, Joanna Cherry's old seat)
Maureen Burke (Pendle and Clitheroe)
Adam Jogee (Newcastle-under-Lyme)
Ben Lake (Plaid Cymru - Ceredigion Preseli)
Natalie Fleet (Bolsover)
Mrs Elsie Blundell (Heywood and Middleton North)
Rebecca Paul (Con - Reigate)
Sarah Champion (Rotherham)
Iqbal Mohamed (ind - Dewsbury and Batley)
Kirsteen Sullivan (Bathgate and Linlithgow)
Mary Glindon (Newcastle upon Tyne East and Wallsend)
Cat Smith (Lancaster and Wyre)
Emily Darlington (Milton Keynes Central)
Torcuil Crichton (Na h-Eileanan an Iar)
Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood)
Richard Baker (Glenrothes and Mid Fife)
Chris Kane (Stirling and Strathallan)
Antonia Bance (Tipton and Wednesbury)
Alison Taylor (Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Ruth Jones (Newport West and Islwyn)
Ann Davies (Plaid Cymru - Caerfyrddin)
Sammy Wilson (DUP - East Antrim)
Neil Duncan-Jordan (Poole)
Ms Polly Billington (East Thanet)
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow West)
Elaine Stewart (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
Catherine Fookes (Monmouthshire)
Rosie Duffield (ind, Canterbury)
Irene Campbell (North Ayrshire and Arran)
Douglas McAllister (West Dunbartonshire)
Graeme Downie (Dunfermline and Dollar)
Frank McNally (Coatbridge and Bellshill)
Blair McDougall (East Renfrewshire)
Martin Rhodes (Glasgow North)
Alex Easton (ind Unionist - North Down)
Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington)
Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham)
Carla Lockhart (DUP - Upper Bann)
Paula Barker (Liverpool Wavertree)

If you live in their constituencies, you could try telling them both of these would harm the people they say they're concerned about.
'The Ian formerly known as SW5'. What they said: "Indispensable", "You are our best resource", and (hours later!) "I'm afraid that you're being made redundant..."

DBLM

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Re: Nordic Model in the UK?
« Reply #2 on: 01 May 2025, 12:54:14 pm »
It is in the committee stage and they are accepting written evidence. Send it in ASAP. The deadline really is in days.

https://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2025/march/crime-and-policing-bill-call-for-evidence/

"Do you have relevant expertise and experience or a special interest in the Crime and Policing Bill which is currently passing through Parliament?

If so, you can submit your views in writing to the House of Commons Public Bill Committee which is going to consider this Bill.

The Public Bill Committee is now able to receive written evidence. The sooner you send in your submission, the more time the Committee will have to take it into consideration.

The Public Bill Committee will scrutinise the Bill line by line. The Public Bill Committee will meet for the first time on Thursday 27 March 2025 to consider the Bill and is expected to report by 5pm on Tuesday 13 May. When the Committee concludes its consideration of the Bill it is no longer able to receive written evidence and it can conclude earlier than the expected deadline of 5.00pm on Tuesday 13 May 2025. You are strongly advised to submit your written evidence as soon as possible."

Ask your clients to send in evidence too.

****
You should obviously write about whatever you like, especially as it applies to you.
I'll post what I write here later today, just to help.

But first, here is my brainstorm on it:

For my part I'm not going to say this law will fling me into poverty and into the arms of pimps and on the streets, because that isn't true and I think it plays into the narrative that we are uneducated and unqualified and need looking after.

My approach would be more that I am a self-employed independent business woman (and graduate, note that 1/3 of us have degrees). I deliberately chose this profession for its many positive aspects, including good income, part-time work, choosing my own hours to fit with children, as well as the job satisfaction of helping people.

I will point out that my client's needs are more than pure sex and most of my clients are single. Loneliness is a common problem among them.

I see people with many psychological problems and there is a crisis in men's mental health. I have particularly helped men with issues of cancer, loneliness, body-image, grief, and men who have been victims of violence. I have training in counseling and feel well able to deal with these clients (I specifically advertise for them), and I wouldn't expect every sex worker to deal with them.

I would point out that the government shouldn't have a role in the harmless sexual behaviour of consenting adults.

I will point out that the legislation is unworkable nonsense because it says that no one should work for us if they suspect we do sex work: we employ accountants to do our taxes.

I will point out that it contradicts other legislation and government policy, such as on housing. Many sex workers work from home and if they rent this legislation requires their landlord to evict them.

I might point out that while I can see one or two clients in half a day and take £200-£300 gross, whereas if I had to work as a straight no-sex masseuse, it might take me 6 hours to take that money, and I currently never work 6 hours a day. There is no sense in which you can say sex workers will be better off it they aren't sex workers.

I might point out that We Buy Any Car employees are at work from 9.30am until after 7 pm 5 days a week on minimum pay. Each day, they earn less than I take in 2 hours. They are expected to work in terrible conditions and put in unpaid overtime. They are the exploited ones.

I might point out that trafficked and exploited people are more often found working in nail bars and car washes, but no one is campaigning to ban those businesses.






amy

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Re: Nordic Model in the UK?
« Reply #3 on: 01 May 2025, 01:05:58 pm »
I will point out that the legislation is unworkable nonsense because it says that no one should work for us if they suspect we do sex work: we employ accountants to do our taxes.

I would leave this out on the grounds of factual accuracy; we do not 'employ' accountants any more than punters 'employ' us; we are the accountant's customer and they are self employed (or employed by their accountancy firm) :)

Edit: The problem with concentrating on how great prostitution can be for some is that it doesn't really engender sympathy and it runs the risk of making us look callous and self-interested; a lot of people in sex work ARE 'uneducated and unqualified' (including me) or otherwise vulnerable, even if the majority of the people here may not consider themselves so.

From personal experience (and God knows I've written enough of these things, and for even less worthy causes than this halfarsed waste of space), the more powerful objections are the briefest ones, from people who have genuine fears for their safety and wellbeing should the decent punters not just stop booking, but be fearful of reporting anything off to the police if they happen to come across it.
« Last Edit: 01 May 2025, 01:46:22 pm by amy »

Mirror

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Re: Nordic Model in the UK?
« Reply #4 on: 01 May 2025, 03:19:40 pm »
From personal experience (and God knows I've written enough of these things, and for even less worthy causes than this halfarsed waste of space), the more powerful objections are the briefest ones, from people who have genuine fears for their safety and wellbeing should the decent punters not just stop booking, but be fearful of reporting anything off to the police if they happen to come across it.

Exactly if the concern is safety, Nordic doesn't improve it, could reduce safety and increase potential for harm to go unreported.

« Last Edit: 01 May 2025, 06:00:04 pm by xw5 »

ana30

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Re: Nordic Model in the UK?
« Reply #5 on: 01 May 2025, 08:36:58 pm »
Exactly if the concern is safety, Nordic doesn't improve it, could reduce safety and increase potential for harm to go unreported.

And that's what happens in sweden: sex workers don't report shyte because they find themselves with a police car permanently parked outside their door checking out who comes in and out, asking her clients for their ID, no one wants that so swedish sex workers simply don't go to the police as they risk loosing their job.
"Sex work is real work, being a landlord isn't" - Graffitti seen on a wall.

DBLM

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Re: Nordic Model in the UK?
« Reply #6 on: 02 May 2025, 12:14:35 pm »
I haven't finished writing my response, but you might find this useful. It is about the scope of the proposals in normal person's language.
The implications are worse/wider than I thought.


https://medium.com/the-sex-work/plans-to-end-legitimate-sex-work-in-the-uk-e83e63f54406
« Last Edit: 02 May 2025, 06:00:08 pm by DBLM »

xw5

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Re: Nordic Model in the UK?
« Reply #7 on: 02 May 2025, 01:07:31 pm »
The proposals are, of course, gesture politics at their worst, but with this bunch of MPs suggesting them, they are extremely unlikely to be passed.

It's still worth pointing out to MPs why they're so crap though.
'The Ian formerly known as SW5'. What they said: "Indispensable", "You are our best resource", and (hours later!) "I'm afraid that you're being made redundant..."

DBLM

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Re: Nordic Model in the UK?
« Reply #8 on: 08 May 2025, 12:55:58 pm »
Am am watching the Committee stage live and they did NOT add those amendments to the bill.

I think we can just assume that those people will repeatedly push for these clauses, but it is good to see that they don't have enough support in Parliament right now even after a load of Nordic Model supporters were elected in 2024..