SAAFE forum
General Category => Politics and academic/media queries => Topic started by: SCOT-PEP on 14 March 2012, 12:57:34 am
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Sex workers have been arrested in Aberdeen while on tour; evidence suggests that Grampian police were monitoring advertising websites to track their movements. Charges have been brought under Section 11 of the Criminal Law (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 1995, namely Trading in Prostitution and Brothel Keeping.
There is no suggestion of entrapment (ie police officers posing as clients), so it looks like the web adverts were the main source of intelligence used to justify the arrests.
We'll keep you posted as we find out more; in the meantime we suggest that any sex workers working in, or touring to, Aberdeen, keep any potentially incriminating information (such as more than one worker on the premises) off of publicly-viewable sites.
For more information on the legal situation in Scotland, see the Toolkit section on the Law here:
http://www.scot-pep.org.uk/sex-workers-toolkit/law
I also noticed there was a post in January, mentioning calling SCOT-PEP for legal advice, if we still answered our phones, and the answer is yes, we do, although it has been a rocky couple of years. There is also a mountain of information and advice on our new website, so please stop by and have a browse.
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I know this isn't a discussion thread but are these girls travelling and working together, or offering duos when touring?or are they completely independent, travelling alone and solo?If the former it might be useful to know since some girls do buddy up and travel together, and often there are touring profiles announcing duos.
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They were travelling and staying together, working in shifts - only one woman working at a time - but they were both staying in the flat. This, according to Grampian police, a brothel makes.
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They were travelling and staying together, working in shifts - only one woman working at a time - but they were both staying in the flat. This, according to Grampian police, a brothel makes.
I was under the impression that in English law a brothel is defined as a place where more than one woman offers sex, and that this doesn't have to be on the same day - can be on different days. So if scottish law contains a similar definition then that definition has been fulfilled, and it's something for touring girls to be aware of.
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That is right a brothel is not allowed in Scotland, one girl per address only. But to be honest I work in Aberdeen. The police office I meet was nice and polite. The Grampian police are doing the job.
But I am not breaking any low? I am independent work from my own property and alone.
The Grampian police don?t want brothels, don?t want illegal working girls, don?t want girl paying money for pimps, and they also not stupid they know 50% of foreign girls using false documents. And everybody known?s many working girls pay for it and use it to rent properties and put other girls to work from. Be a pimp and take money from any working girl in any contry in the world is ILLEGAL.
If you stay in a hotel or self catering they won't bother you except if the hotel or self catering management calls them. That case they will ask you to leave in a polite away. But you must travel alone, work alone and have European passport.
Let's be honest is too many illegal immigrants already on this country.
Take care!
Michelle.
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Michelle, the whole point is that the Grampian police can, have and will continue to 'bother' women working from short stay accommodation - they have plenty of form dating back over the last couple of years and ladies have been turned away from their booked venues upon turning up in some instances without even being permitted to check in. There are threads on this forum and others documenting this, as well as reliable witnesses - to say this will not happen is just not true.
As for your 50% figure, please substantiate this otherwise I will remove it. This is not a place to blithely speculate about what you have no way of knowing for certain, and any further remarks about migrant workers, illegal or otherwise will also be removed.
If this topic is going to continue as a discussion rather than a warning thread it will be moved to Touring Tips - anyone wanting to update with actual information about incidents they have experienced or been party to, please do so.
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Amy,
If you don't give the right advice and information about why these girls are raided and deported .girls will get in trouble. If they are illegal they will be deported they need to know that is the risk of work in a foreign country. Also they are braking the law if they work in groups or work at the same address http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothel , if they are illegal immigrants or using fake documents ( It's called fraud) .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration
It's nothing to fear if you are doing things right. I use my self (holiday accommodation and hotels around Scotland and worldwide, never had a problem. I become resident in Aberdeen and never had a problem with the law. I was believing the site should advise and tell people the true and reality about the working girls world, right??
As I am a a escort myself ,I think I have a point. that away I am helping girls to understand the risk.
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Amy,
If you don't give the right advice and information about why these girls are raided and deported .girls will get in trouble. If they are illegal they will be deported they need to know that is the risk of work in a foreign country. Also they are braking the low if they are working in groups, if they using false documents.
It's nothing to fear if you are doing things right. I use my self (holiday accommodation and hotels around Scotland and worldwide, never had a problem. I become resident in Aberdeen and never had a problem with the law. I was believing the site should advise and tell people the true and reality about the working girls world, right??
As I am a a escort myself ,I think I have a point. that away I am helping girls to understand the risk.
Of course the site should advise working girls correctly which is why Amy quite rightly pointed out that Grampian ARE harassing single women working within the law in the area. They are calling to the working premises of known independent sex workers and effectively having them turfed out on the street under the pretence of a "welfare visit". THAT is fact.
The information is contained in this (http://www.quayservices.co.uk/scottish.law.html) leaflet, issued by Quay services.
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If you say so! It?s never been my experience in any case. And I see many police officers over the years! They check my ID, ask if I am independent and leave.
Lucky me I guess.
To be honest I really don?t care!
Good luck for you all.
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Actually, unless they know something I don't know (which is entirely possible), the Quay Services leaflet is incorrect. There is no definition of "brothel" in Scottish law. The closest thing there is to any recent legal opinion on this is Sheriff Muirhead 's 2008 statement that ?In order to constitute a brothel it is necessary to have more than one prostitute operating at any one time.? This hasn't been tested, so if these prosecutions go forward it's going to be interesting.
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I have been reading this blog and some of the reply and honestly I'm baffled by some of the comments and warnings, NO OFFENCE to the girls that have been arrested or deported over the past few weeks/months but KARMA IS A BITCH RIGHT?
I feel like all sex works who have been arrested or stopped by the police feels like it is a personal vendetta against their "career choice" but lets be honest you choose your job, and the POLICE ARE JUST DOING THEIR JOB!!! Because girls are arrested by the police when they break "ESCORT LAW" suddenly this is a INJUSTICE, but if they was arrested while robbing a bank that would be acceptable? WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE??? either way the law has been broken, and the police is in their right to do what have to be done.
We expect the police to protect us, especially in the industry we are in because it is more dangerous than most, but if they have lost faith, respect and truest in our credibility they can we truly expect them to protect us? Even when some of the "sex workers" are trying to crucify them for a job "WELL DONE" (if i may say so my self).
I been in the business long enough to know the DO's and DON'Ts, if your not sure, research it and learn it, that's what i did, you don't go into a job with out knowing what is expected of you and what your role and responsibilities are.
If you break the law then i support the police 110% with what they are doing, if you are illegal or working from the same property as another girl, then being arrested or deported serves you right.
I been working in Aberdeen and touring for a while, and my experience with the police has been nothing but pleasant, well mannered and good characters, because i stick to the book, i work alone and my passport is always in date.
So moral of the story is, STOP BREAKING THE LAW, AND THE POLICE WILL STOP "BOTHERING" YOU!!
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Perhaps you could explain for us all how the women working independently, indoors and alone who have been harassed for no reason other than that they are going about their legal business are breaking the law? Or do you think that people who have committed no offence should be fair game to be photographed by the police and have their personal details taken for no reason, and if so does this apply to everybody or just prostitutes? Because if every woman checking into any short stay accommodation is to be questioned on the basis that she might be a prostitute, I can see that getting interesting.
And without the ridiculous self-important ranting tone, if you don't mind.
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The explanation is simple, is called PROBABLE CAUSE: probable cause is the standard by which an officer or agent of the law has the grounds to make an arrest, to conduct a personal or property search, or to obtain a warrant for arrest, etc. when criminal charges are being considered.
If the police believes that they might have a reason or a potential arrest they may search, question and take evidence weather is pictures of personal belongings, this is not HARASSMENT, is their job and this applies to everyone, from killers, rapist and "escorts" (I hate the word prostitutes).
And the hotel situation, no i don't believe that everyone should me questioned based on the possibility of being a "sex worker" that would get interesting, but it does bring us back to "probable cause" if they think a person is one, they may question and take evidence as needed.
As long as we co-operate they their should be no need to use the word HARASSMENT, is a simple routine check. When you work in a restaurant the health and safety department has the right to shut you down and search the premisses for no reason, is simple routine, same goes for hospitals and hotels. IS NOT PERSONAL.
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NOT CONVINCED TASTYBBW. HEARD THE THE SAME ABOUT STOP AND SEARCH FACT IT WAS USED TO HARASS CERTAIN STEREOTYPES ONLY .
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The original
excuse claim was that the police are conducting this approach on the basis of safety; plumbers, health visitors and meter readers are some other people who work alone, and are often in vulnerable situations where they are indoors with strangers. Do you think the police should visit their places of business, photograph them and place their personal details on a police computer on the off chance that at some indeterminate point in the future, something 'might' happen to them?
A lone woman advertising that she is working indoors as a prostitute is not sufficient grounds to suspect that criminal activity is taking place, and moreover when it is seen that this is the case, the police have no reason whatsoever to do anything other than leave her alone - why should they then photograph her? And what does any of this have to do with punters, who are also included should they be unlucky enough to be present - bearing in mind there is NO offence in visiting either a lone prostitute or a brothel, how do you justify this gross invasion of their privacy? Whether or not the officers involved are pleasant and polite (as they should always be anyway) is completely irrelevant.
Collecting information on law abiding people is not a function of the police - you may think it's OK, but an awful lot of people with at least a passing concern about our basic civil rights would disagree with you. Bearing in mind the ongoing attempts to outlaw prostitution in Scotland, I'm amazed that anybody working there would want their legal name and personal information on record so it can come back to haunt them later. Once on a police computer, that information isn't going anywhere and you can forget about any future job which includes a CRB check for example; being tagged as a 'known prostitute' might not matter to you, but it could seriously fuck things up for other people.
If you don't care that's fine and it's entirely up to you, but don't complain because plenty of other people find this sort of outrageous abuse of their civil liberties unacceptable. Whether GP are well intentioned or not, they're way off the mark here - if they want to close down brothels then their resources would be far better concentrated on doing so, not poring over the AW tour board looking for people to pester.
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I'm not trying to convince you, i am providing my personal opinion, that's what i thought this forums where about.
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OMG :-[
I Agree 100% with tastyBBW. And I am wondering: Amy have you experience it yourself?? Is the Grampian police or any other police office ever raider you??? Or someone told you?? I tell you I have been raided in North ireland and South Ireland several times , I was travel with another lady, never less they was very nice and never put as in any embarrassing situation, I remember The last time was in Cork..they come in 5 , 1 lady and 4 man , The guy knock on my door dress as normal person and others was in uniform. and the only thing they told us... was 2 ladies working at the same property was illegal , we could stay but should not work after they leave... Guess what they was right... I was pissed because we pay for 1 week and we couldn't work.. fair enough packing our bags and go...we know we brake the law. I have been visited by the police in several occasion's. in UK ,Glasgow. Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Leicester and Swindon several times, I was not braking any law..so they left and I just continuing work not problem so ever. I never had experienced nothing like that.. So i need to say I am the only lucky here. What account is the coin had 2 sides...? We most walk in a 2 ways street right?? Lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact is very annoying.
I am very surprise with what you people saying...
Better sleep on....
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You are right plumbers, health visitors and meter readers and other people of this sort do spend time in homes of strangers, the difference being, they have offices they keeps track off their where about at all time, with customers names, address and phone numbers, most of their transport now have tracking systems and company phones, when a employee is unreachable or not wear they are meant to be the company has a average of 85-90% more chance off keeping them safe.
Now, with a "sex worker" can you honestly tell me that their where about and appointments are ALWAYS known by a 3rd party? that will keep track of them and keep them safe in case of a emergency??
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Police should spend their time catching criminals not harassing hardworking sex workers, if they caught more violent criminals maybe we wouldn't need their welfare visits or anything else they want to call them. Working girls need to take responsibility for their safety putting in place proper procedures. We are after all professionals and legal ! Are they ever around when actually needed ???
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http://www.quayservices.co.uk/scottish.law.html
The Law and Brothels
Brothels are illegal.
What is a brothel?
Working with other sex workers from the same property makes the premises a brothel, regardless if the women are all working independently and at different times of the week. That?s true whether or not they work there at the same time, whether or not they offer sexual intercourse and even whether or not they charge.
If you are touring with a friend for companionship only and that friend is not a sex worker, it may be difficult to prove this. However, the Police will consider each case differently and if there is no evidence of a brothel being run then they will leave you to it.
If the premises are made up of different rooms, and let separately to different individuals, they may still be treated as a brothel if there are shared facilities such as toilets, washing facilities etc.
With regards to brothel keeping, The Criminal Law (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 1995 (c.39) states that it is an offence for any person to:
?Keep, manage, act or assist in the management of a brothel
?Be the tenant, lessee, occupier or person in charge of any premises and knowingly allow such premises or any part thereof to be used as a brothel or for the purposes of habitual prostitution
?Be the lessor or landlord of any premises, or the agent of such lessor or landlord, and lets the property with the knowledge that the premises or some part of the premises are or is to be used as a brothel, or is wilfully a party to the continued use of such premises or any part as a brothel
Section 45 of the Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010 came into force on 13 December 2010, raising the maximum penalty for offences under section 11 of the Criminal Law (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 1995 (brothel keeping etc) to 7 years imprisonment or a fine or both on conviction on indictment (i.e. in front of a jury).
Escorting and The Law
Working as an Escort
It is legal to work as a sex worker for an escort agency.
Be careful which agencies you decide to work for as some will try to rip you off and offer no protection whatsoever. Shop around for agencies which look out for your safety, offer reasonable terms and conditions and have been recommended by other workers.
Working as an independent escort is also legal.
If you work with a ?maid?, who doesn?t provide sexual services, this is also legal. As long as the maid is not selling sexual services nor has no element of control over the business, then he/she can get paid. Please note that duties such as cleaning, making coffee and taking rubbish out do not amount to control.
If the maid assists with the management of the business or has any control over it?s running in any way, she/he is breaking the law and is liable for prosecution. Control can consist of banking, paying bills, advertising services or helping to set prices.
Grampian Police
Quay Services have liased with Grampian Police regarding their approach to off-street sex workers after we received questions from women working independently as escorts who had experienced police officers turning up at their place of work.
Below is a summary of the response from Grampian Police regarding their approach to women working off-street. By having this information on our website we hope to better inform women of the local police approach in the local area:
Grampian Police stated that they wish to establish a good rapport with women working in the sex industry. They want to help prevent crimes happening against you e.g. punter robberies, brothel involvement etc.
However, they stated they are also under duty to respond to any concerns regarding potential criminal activity from members of the public. If someone e.g. housekeeping/hotel staff, neighbours etc alert the Police to any activity that is deemed by them as suspicious e.g. different individuals coming to and from a flat etc then the Police may visit the property.
This is because they are looking for any criminal activity related to prostitution and looking to ensure the safety of off-street sex workers.
Grampian Police?s main objectives in contacting indoor sex workers are:
?Ensuring women?s safety
?Ensuring that there is no coercion/force i.e. human trafficking and making sure that the women present are working of their own free will
?Confirmation of identity i.e. women are who they say they are
?The prevention of bigger crimes - Grampian Police are of the opinion that this method of engaging with off-street sex workers may help to prevent larger scale crimes such as robberies and attacks on women by punters. It is hoped that by building a better rapport and trust with Grampian Police, women may feel more comfortable and able to inform Police about crimes committed against them, and ultimately feel more protected by Grampian Police
?Grampian Police are keen to share information with off-street sex workers regarding dodgy punters and also wish to provide safety advice
?Ensuring that you are working within the boundaries of the law
If Grampian Police do visit your property and have established that you are working there of your own free will they will then take your photograph ? they do this because if something happened to you then they would be able to identify you more quickly and would help inform their investigation. The photograph is only seen by a small team of Officers who are working within the sex industry department of Grampian Police. Grampian Police have stated that any information gained by officers regarding women working off-street is kept confidential within a small team in Grampian Police. The information cannot be accessed by other law enforcement teams and as such would not appear on a PVG check.
The Police will also take your contact details and run them through the Police National Computer (PNC check), a computer database system that is used by law enforcement agencies across the UK. They are looking for any outstanding warrants or any previous criminal convictions that they should be aware of.
If you are with a client when Grampian Police visit your property, they will also take a photograph and personal details from your client. Their details are also run through the PNC. This is for your safety, to ensure that the client is not a dangerous criminal or is wanted by the Police.
Grampian Police have stated that as long as there is no evidence of criminal activity or brothel keeping, then the Police will take no action. After Grampian Police have visited and are satisfied that you are working independently, they will ask you to call or text them next time that you are working in Aberdeen. Grampian Police stated this is because if a hotel or serviced flat, for example, do contact them again with the same issues such as individuals coming to and from the property, then they will be able to confirm that you are not doing anything illegal. Then it is up to the individual establishment to decide whether they wish to take any action, such as asking you to leave.
The decision to ask you to leave is made by the venue and not at the insistence of Grampian Police, unless they have had a specific complaint.
By communicating with the Police about when you are working in Aberdeen, they endeavour to be able to pass onto you any information that is relevant to your wellbeing, such as giving details of a dodgy punter for you to look out for. And vice versa.
A common concern raised by women is how confidential the storage of their information is once Grampian Police have taken their details and any future implications having contact with the police may have e.g. on employment prospects.
If you have any views on this approach, please get in touch and we will be happy to pass on any comments to Grampian Police.
For access to more detailed information about the law in Scotland, please follow this link.
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Great for sending me to sleep thanks just what i needed !
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Read before you speak. ;D
Grampian Police?s main objectives in contacting indoor sex workers are:
?Ensuring women?s safety
?Ensuring that there is no coercion/force i.e. human trafficking and making sure that the women present are working of their own free will
?Confirmation of identity i.e. women are who they say they are
?The prevention of bigger crimes - Grampian Police are of the opinion that this method of engaging with off-street sex workers may help to prevent larger scale crimes such as robberies and attacks on women by punters. It is hoped that by building a better rapport and trust with Grampian Police, women may feel more comfortable and able to inform Police about crimes committed against them, and ultimately feel more protected by Grampian Police
?Grampian Police are keen to share information with off-street sex workers regarding dodgy punters and also wish to provide safety advice
?Ensuring that you are working within the boundaries of the law
If Grampian Police do visit your property and have established that you are working there of your own free will they will then take your photograph ? they do this because if something happened to you then they would be able to identify you more quickly and would help inform their investigation. The photograph is only seen by a small team of Officers who are working within the sex industry department of Grampian Police. Grampian Police have stated that any information gained by officers regarding women working off-street is kept confidential within a small team in Grampian Police. The information cannot be accessed by other law enforcement teams and as such would not appear on a PVG check.
The Police will also take your contact details and run them through the Police National Computer (PNC check), a computer database system that is used by law enforcement agencies across the UK. They are looking for any outstanding warrants or any previous criminal convictions that they should be aware of.
If you are with a client when Grampian Police visit your property, they will also take a photograph and personal details from your client. Their details are also run through the PNC. This is for your safety, to ensure that the client is not a dangerous criminal or is wanted by the Police.
Grampian Police have stated that as long as there is no evidence of criminal activity or brothel keeping, then the Police will take no action. After Grampian Police have visited and are satisfied that you are working independently, they will ask you to call or text them next time that you are working in Aberdeen. Grampian Police stated this is because if a hotel or serviced flat, for example, do contact them again with the same issues such as individuals coming to and from the property, then they will be able to confirm that you are not doing anything illegal. Then it is up to the individual establishment to decide whether they wish to take any action, such as asking you to leave.
The decision to ask you to leave is made by the venue and not at the insistence of Grampian Police, unless they have had a specific complaint.
By communicating with the Police about when you are working in Aberdeen, they endeavour to be able to pass onto you any information that is relevant to your wellbeing, such as giving details of a dodgy punter for you to look out for. And vice versa.
A common concern raised by women is how confidential the storage of their information is once Grampian Police have taken their details and any future implications having contact with the police may have e.g. on employment prospects.
If you have any views on this approach, please get in touch and we will be happy to pass on any comments to Grampian Police.
For access to more detailed information about the law in Scotland, please follow this link.
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Now I understand why the media( NEWS PAPER AND TV) always talk about sex worker as we are all vulnerable and ignorants..
Some people haven't a clue and they still argue.
OM LORD. ;D
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8)
I read a lot , think a lot and have experienced even more. That is why I am not naive enough to believe everything I am told especially by the police. Funny how anyone who dares to have a different opinion OR question stuff is ignorant. Well name calling is one of the things I learned to deal with as a kid being different to my classmates guess not much changes in this tolerant country of ours .
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Now I understand why the media( NEWS PAPER AND TV) always talk about sex worker as we are all vulnerable and ignorants..
Some people haven't a clue and they still argue.
OM LORD. ;D
Oh....dear.
What has any of the previous waffle got to do with the FACT that independent, British, legal lone sex workers have been harrassed (etc etc!) by certain police forces?
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Amy have you experience it yourself??
Yes I have, not that it's any of your business. I also know many others this has happened to.
You are right plumbers, health visitors and meter readers and other people of this sort do spend time in homes of strangers, the difference being, they have offices they keeps track off their where about at all time, with customers names, address and phone numbers, most of their transport now have tracking systems and company phones, when a employee is unreachable or not wear they are meant to be the company has a average of 85-90% more chance off keeping them safe.
Now, with a "sex worker" can you honestly tell me that their where about and appointments are ALWAYS known by a 3rd party? that will keep track of them and keep them safe in case of a emergency??
Well I certainly make sure that at least one of my security buddies knows exactly where I am, when I have bookings and how long they are and what time they are expecting to hear from me as well as having full details of the client for outcalls, and I would expect any responsible sex worker to do likewise. My personal safety, whether I am working, catching a taxi or walking home is MY responsibility, not that of the police.
Out of interest, if I got into trouble on an outcall, how would the police 'keep track' of me (and for that matter, if I decide to murder the plumber and dump the body, what's the difference between their office and my security buddy calling the police if they don't hear from them/me on time - why is the former 'safer'?) And why the inverted commas, incidentally?
Now I understand why the media( NEWS PAPER AND TV) always talk about sex worker as we are all vulnerable and ignorants..
Some people haven't a clue and they still argue.
OM LORD. ;D
Oh....dear.
What has any of the previous waffle got to do with the FACT that independent, British, legal lone sex workers have been harrassed (etc etc!) by certain police forces?
Nothing at all, which is why, Michelle, this is a formal warning to keep it civil and on topic. You can find out what the topic is by reading the thread starter by SCOT-PEP, a well known organisation which supports and protects sex workers, and whose concerns about the police's behaviour is the reason for this thread.
You appear to have only signed up to this forum for to rant, rave and namecall (and here's a tip; if you're going to accuse others of being ignorant, it might be a good idea to wait until you've attained some degree of basic literacy yourself - most of the non-British women who post here have a better command of written English than you display in your posts) and this sort of rudeness and hostility will not be tolerated. Hot Pepper in particular has been particularly forgiving, but I for one will not be called ignorant by somebody who cannot spell 'newspaper', especially when they lack the manners to even attempt to answer the points I have raised, and have sidestepped every single one to instead back into their corner and whine about how thick we all are.
Any more of the same (and that includes the shouting - posting in all caps is against the forum guidelines) and you're going on Mute. Either participate in the discussion like a sensible adult, or go back to wherever you came from and take your mindless, ill-informed shrieking with you.
There will not be another warning.
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Reading through these posts I got confused and thought Michelle and TastyBBW were one and the same - same writing style, same ranting!
It seems you both just want to stir things up not have a genuine discussion.
(Sorry if thats clogging up the thread but had to say it)
Some excellent points from Amy.
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A few months ago the same problems were happening in Inverness. It should pass. The cops often take on projects like this when the auditors are due in.
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Well said Amy. I was more than a little shocked by Michelle8 postings. I appreciate your appropriate response.
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Now I understand why the media( NEWS PAPER AND TV) always talk about sex worker as we are all vulnerable and ignorants..
Some people haven't a clue and they still argue.
OM LORD. ;D
Really well I toured scotland on my own. I was questioned by the police, They tried to take my photo but I refused unless they arrested me and I was removed from the apartment I had paid a lot of money for. Thankfully I had put all my earnings into the bank that morning or I would have lost that as well. I was not breaking the law. I was touring alone. The police had no reason to suspect illegal activity and basically told me they just dont want more prositutes coming into the area. They had no legal reason whatsoever to even come near me. they had to admit no law was broken (I am quite admant when I need to be and I stated that unless I was arrested and charged with a lawyer present they would not be getting my photograph, they have no legal right to take it by the way).
So I do not have a clue??? I think I do. I was on the end of it. Perhaps as you work there all the time it is different. We are after all talking about women who tour to the area so perhaps it is you who does not have a clue yet still wants to argue the point.
I take great offence at basically being called a liar and ignorant of the facts when I am one of the unfortunate ones it has happened to. perhaps jumping off your high horse and getting a hold of the FACTS before spouting off your own opinions. Remember this is a warning thread for women, it is about facts not what you think might be true in yourcase. Facts outweigh personal opinions everytime and perhaps you should realise that before insulting anyone this has happened to.
Do you have any idea of how bloody scary it is when this happens? Or the repurcussions for those that did have their pictures taken? It is now down on record they are prositutes and that will follow them for the rest of their lives. Any full CRB that allows police notes will have it on. so there will be no working as a midwife (my previous job before this that I had hoped to go back to one day) there is no working with children or vulnerable people at anytime in your life.
This has a serious affect on those it has happened to. I cannot now go back to my old job as I said before as my name is now on record as being a prossie. For you to make light of it or to even rubbish it is damn annoying and has really pissed me off. (Sorry mods I do not normally swear). In fact I never write arguing posts in all the years I have been on here but your lack of knowledge has seriously got my goat.
Before posting again on any thread why not ensure you are aware of the facts, it will make you sound a little more educated and not quite so thick
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I think michelle and tastybbw want to provoke this type of reaction. They seem to have a very low opinion of wgs which is odd considering they are also wgs.
I'm in Scotland permanently and touch wood have never had this happen to me. I would also never presume to throw my opinions about in such an offensive way as michele/tastbbw.
Sorry to hear of your experience danielle and good for you that you stood up for yourself.
I hope things improve soon for Ladies in this area.
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Danielle that is awful , really sorry this happened to you . All may not be lost though, i have loads of experience of CRBS including as part of an umbrella body registered to do them . You could apply for a crb for yourself as a self employed person / consultant whatever . Then only you and the agency you pay to do this will have a copy. If this prossie thing appears on your crb, you can go through complaints / appeal system to have it removed. Hope this helps . PM if you have any questions re this.
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I read the original replies from Michelle and could just feel a little ... :FF coming on.
Michelle, allow me to explain this to you in very simple terms.
Yes, the police have set out in lovely flowery language about how they only want to ensure the safety of sex
workers and that's why they are doing these "welfare visits", perhaps you would be kind enough to enlighten
me as to how having a lady on her own thrown out of her lodgings in the dead of night is ensuring her safety ?
Particularly when hotels in some areas have a nasty habit of sending each other details of said lady so she hasn't
got a hope in hell of getting anywhere else to stay, except a B & B I wouldn't put my cat in if she's lucky ?
You see, what is happening is this - plod roll up to the hotel and naturally the night manager will want to know why
they are there. "We're here to visit the prostitute in room 321". Naturally, the night manager is going to want the
lady out, so although the police are not DIRECTLY responsible for ejecting the lady, when asked to do so by the
hotel management, they will do so.
Also Michelle, I'd invite you to read before you speak too, in particular this thread on Punternet, with contributions
from several well known independent escorts as to what is going on. Link here. (http://www.punternet.com/forum/index.php/topic/6813-police-harassment/)
Still, as you said yourself, it doesn't matter to you anyway, does it ? I'm sure you said -
"To be honest I really don?t care!"
... which says it all.
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Reading through these posts I got confused and thought Michelle and TastyBBW were one and the same - same writing style, same ranting!
Simply because we share the same opinion does not make us the same person.
I think michelle and tastybbw want to provoke this type of reaction. They seem to have a very low opinion of wgs which is odd considering they are also wgs.
I don't have a low opinion about sex works, i simply have a opinion on workers that breaks the law in general regardless of their jobs.
And i will be the first to admit, this blog has definitely gotten a little out off control, i was simply expressing my opinion and if the fact i don't agree with most people about the police, If my opinion has offends people i sincerely apologise apologise, There is no point arguing with anyone about their opinion, as having a opinion is a right we all have regardless is its a good or a bad one, i personally have not experienced or personally know any other sex worker who has experienced the harassment stated in this forum.
I guess i could be qualified as biased as i know a fair amount of police officers and i have police friends.
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Danielle that is awful , really sorry this happened to you . All may not be lost though, i have loads of experience of CRBS including as part of an umbrella body registered to do them . You could apply for a crb for yourself as a self employed person / consultant whatever . Then only you and the agency you pay to do this will have a copy. If this prossie thing appears on your crb, you can go through complaints / appeal system to have it removed. Hope this helps . PM if you have any questions re this.
Unfortunately when the NHS do a CRB it is a full disclosure which will also include any notes the police think might be usefull to them. so even if I have not been arrested or prosecuted this can be put on my CRB. I can hardly fight it or deny it considering they turned up with a copy of my profile and by law I had to give them my real name or I would have been comitting an offense.
This happened to me over a year ago and was the reason I have not toured since although I am just getting the nerve up to start again but wil be missing out on Scotland completely. My advice is if you do tour there, make sure you go by car so you have somewhere to sleep or just drive home, make sure you put your money in the bank every day (the police will keep it) and do not give your hotel or apartment name to anyone until they have arrived in an area where you can see them and ensure they are not the police.
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Unfortunately when the NHS do a CRB it is a full disclosure which will also include any notes the police think might be usefull to them. so even if I have not been arrested or prosecuted this can be put on my CRB. I can hardly fight it or deny it considering they turned up with a copy of my profile and by law I had to give them my real name or I would have been comitting an offense.
But I think the point is that why should your record hold info that you're a prostitute when prostitution is not illegal? That's what I think Hot Pepper meant when she said you can appeal.
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Exactly,sorry if i was unclear . I know people who we did crbs for have things removed that if they were true would amount to serious criminality , but police couldn't prove, it is totally their ( police) discretion to decide what is relevant for disclosure
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Thanks Laura for posting the PN link - the corresponding SAAFE thread for the newer members is here (http://www.saafe.info/main/index.php?topic=2654.msg25308#msg25308). Also related, although concerning Customs rather than the Police is Mariah's thread (http://www.saafe.info/main/index.php?topic=7376.msg59570#msg59570) from last December relating to her being detained at Aberdeen airport and having her earnings confiscated.
Danielle, thanks for posting - it must have been a horrible experience and I'm not surprised it put you off touring. Your post mirrors exactly what other ladies who have had the same happen to them have said and many were too frightened and upset to stand up for themselves the way you did (no-one who is not under arrest has to to consent to being photographed as far as I know, unless the law in Scotland specifically regarding this is different to the rest of the UK).
TastyBBW, I would like to make it clear that my earlier post was directed squarely at Michelle and not yourself - if you have had no negative experiences working as a resident in Aberdeen then that's great, and long may it continue. Your information is very helpful, because it makes it clear to us all that it is touring ladies visiting from other areas that the police are specifically targeting (and when I went I only saw punters with credible AW feedback or PN reports and had no problems at all although it was hardly an ideal situation and I was still a nervous wreck every time the outside door of the apartments went; I even set up a camcorder near the door ready for Youtube just in case). On this basis, I would ask that you read the other threads and posts from the ladies who were affected and imagine how horrible it would feel if you were hundreds of miles from home by yourself and had forked out hundreds of pounds on travel and accommodation to be humiliated, thrown out of the place you are staying and treated like a criminal when you had done nothing wrong. I remember an incidence of one lady being refused check in at her hotel and turned away when she arrived (in Dundee, I think), so the 'complaints from the hotel' argument they've been using really doesn't wash.
I do think a basic 'bust card' type guide to your rights if visited by the police would be helpful - we have them for English law, but I don't know anyone with a good enough knowledge of Scottish law. Maybe SCOT-PEP could help?
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Can the police actually take money from a working girl???That's bad. Danielle, I am so sorry about what has happened to you. x
You weren't arrested so I doubt anything will show on a crb. Police will not share all their intelligence on people.
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From what I understand they can seize any monies they believe to be proceeds of lifestyle crime under POCA. There doesn't have to be any proof, or charges brought and they can hold it indefinitely.
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You weren't arrested so I doubt anything will show on a crb. Police will not share all their intelligence on people.
Unfortunately they will share anything they think is relevant for the job you need the CRB for. The NHS has a big NO NO for those who have worked in the paid sex industry and the police can put it at the bottom of my notes especially considering it is the only notes they have on me as have not even had a parking fine before.
------------------------------------------------LEGAL BORING BUT NECCESSARY BIT BELOW---------------------------------------------------
Can I also add to this thread that in Scotland you do NOT have to give your real name unless the police have reason to believe an offence has been/is likely to be comitted (I found this out afterwards). It is however an offense to give a false name. This is the same if they stop and search you. Unless they are going to caution and arrest you, you do not have to give your name. Do this politely though i.e I have been legally informed not to give you my details unless arrested and in the presence of my solicitor. If you say I do not have to give it to you they will more than likely just arrest you for obstruction in their investigations so the first way is the way to avoid this (basically they have no charges to be brought and you stating to give your name in front of a solicitor after being arrested shows you know this and they cannot arrest you for no reason).
Do not under any circumstances allow them to take your photo as this is invasion of privacy and they cannot do this without either a warrant or you being charged and the photo taken at the station.
They do not search your clothes so if you cannot get to the bank hide your money in amongst your lingerie (again they cannot search without probable cause (the belief a crime has been comitted or will be) or a warrant. Keep your bad packed at all times so if they turn up you can just walk out and say you are leaving and you are glad they are here as you might need them to ensure you get a refund from the hotel/apartments as you do not want there to be any arguments etc (they cannot refuse if they think there might be a breach of the peace).
Remember you have not broken the law and therefor they cannot justify treating you as such (I was ignorant of most of the facts so I did not know most of this but as am touring again have made sure I have found out the laws here, in Scotland and in Eire
Also they do try to take your money but legally the police cannot take it unless they are charging you with a crime. Customs are different and can take it and anything else they choose to take and you can appeal and they normally give it back unless they decide to charge you with a crime which unless you have ?10,000 or more they would fine hard to do (anything more than that in cash can be seen as laundering)
edited........not doing anything today so will see if I can find a bust card for scotland as I know I have seen one for those who travel to Scotland for demonstrations. Most of the same would apply
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bust card
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn261/nette1969/Untitled.png)
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If you don't give the right advice and information about why these girls are raided
From what I've read on forums, the police equally target British escorts.