SAAFE forum
General Category => Blather and Babble => Topic started by: happyhappyjoyjoy on 17 March 2014, 05:24:04 pm
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Documentary examining young people's attitudes to prostitution - from the men who pay for sex, to the women who sell it. The programme also looks at the changing nature of the industry, and examines the strength of politicians' arguments to ban it entirely. Presented by Billie JD Porter
I am really not sure whether to watch this or not these things usually make me angry.
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Sky+ box set. Lets see what it brings. Thanks HHJJ.
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I'm with you on not knowing if i should watch, but i know that curiosity will get the better of me and i will watch, probably shouting at the tv occasionally ;D
Lets hoope this one has some opinions i can relate to and agree with.
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Looking forward to this, thanks for the heads up. I find Billie JD Porter usually good, she looks at the facts and remains pragmatic. So hoping for a fair and accurate documentary.
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It is pointless getting angry at stupid people.... I find these programs amusing more than anything as they often show how little the people know or understand about the business.
Sarah x x x
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Does anyone remember that Ann Widdecome Vs Prostitution documentary on a few years ago? Now that was comical, what a joke! Chasing after some poor girl on the street who didn't want to be filmed, I laughed when she threw her drink over Ann and the other guy with her! I mean really.. ::)
I'm definitely going to watch this on iPlayer later on or tomorrow, it should be interesting!
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The blurb doesn't make me think they've got anything like a good perspective: "talking to the young men who routinely pay for sex about why they do it, and to the young women who sell their bodies about what's in it for them"..
.. but as ever it depends on who they've talked to. Interestingly, they've gone for the 100,000 figure rather than the more common (and still wrong) 70,000 one.
As well as iPlayer, it's repeated at 01:35am and on 02:00am in the early hours of Thursday.
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I'm looking forward to this, should be interesting.
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The title suggests to me that the approach will be 'Here's some young men going "It's a laugh, they enjoy it", but OMG here are some young women going "I felt as if I was being raped!"' without showing the diversity of experience that is out there.
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I am finding the programme really interesting. It is good to see people wanting the law clearer on prostitution, and for it to be legal for 2 women to work from the same place, it would make things a lot safer.
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Wow, That wasnt offensive at all. Very good.
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I am finding the programme really interesting. It is good to see people wanting the law clearer on prostitution, and for it to be legal for 2 women to work from the same place, it would make things a lot safer.
Yeah I totally agree. Really felt for the street walker who didn't want her identity showing. Although where I'm working (parlour) it still hits home and actually made me feel sad.
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I am finding the programme really interesting. It is good to see people wanting the law clearer on prostitution, and for it to be legal for 2 women to work from the same place, it would make things a lot safer.
Yeah I totally agree. Really felt for the street walker who didn't want her identity showing. Although where I'm working (parlour) it still hits home and actually made me feel sad.
Meant to say where I'm working is safe**
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hey, I'm happy to say I was pleasantly surprised. Not with all of it, but certainly lots of it!
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I predict there will be 3000 or more new SW's signing up to join AW in the next 24 hours.
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I predict there will be 3000 or more new SW's signing up to join AW in the next 24 hours.
I thought the same!! Mainly on webcam! Good luck to them I say; it will also bring a lot more punters to the site and it's all about supply and demand.
As for the programme, it was refreshingly non-judgmental and wasn't nearly as sensationalist as I expected. It seemed quite well balanced as well - I think. That said, I haven't had time to reflect on it properly yet!! :) A rather smart move on Miss LK's part I'd say!
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Yes I enjoyed watching her other documentaries also. She seems really cool, intelligent and clued up.
Yes any opportunity for women or men to make money and control their own destiny is positive in my eyes also. I will be hitting directcam very hard this week as any publicity is good publicity if you know how to work it ;D
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It's certainly given me the kick up the bum to refresh my profile a little and I'm glad my new laptop is arriving this week so I can start webcamming again.
Like everyone else (punter and prossie alike) I was bracing myself for a disappointing documentry. Expecting it to focus on trafficked girls, pimps and how we're all drug dependent and skint. I was pleasently surprised though!
I do think that perhaps some of these girls who watch it and sign up will be setting themselves up for disapointment as it's not all ?1000 a week in camming and 30min massage, 30second sex, bubble bath and biscuits.
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Yep its bloody hard graft being self employed and as the lady said this work is not for everyone.
I would dare any woman to try her luck on AW without any prior experience in sex work..the newbie hunter punters are like sharks feeding frenzy.
I was slightly worried her slighty sarcastic pin on AW prossies as being HIGH CLASS and stereotyping that all street workers are drugged out and abused was abit weird.
Although I have never worked on the streets many years ago that was the done thing and all that history should not be tarnished with he constant association with drug abuse.
But documentaries like this were common on current TV before it was sold off by Mr Murdoch and all focused on AW? But only certain people would watch these docs and they will be young people or those that are interested in the sex industry(SWs and punters) . The demographic that BBC3 cater for is the young so what really was the point of this?
It came on after Family guy and American dad ??? :FF :FF :FF
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Wow this was balanced!Refreshingly surprised!Nice one bbc 3!
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Watching the repeat now...LOVED the first guy - Chris - and his open, honest opinion about using prostitutes in London. Very glad to see an unashamed "yeah? and?" stance right at the beginning of the programme.
Loving the K5 Dutch brothel. We need good, regulated places like this in UK!
Billie Porter (the presenter) just looks a bit bored throughout 90% of the programme. Not shocked, not interested, not amused...just vacant and mentally switched off.
Ah, and now we're onto webcamming. Not really prossying, is it :-\ But SHIT this lady gets ?4k a month from sex/adultwork - and then shows ?89k in 2 years from just webcamming alone!!! :o But later CHarlotte did speak positively about prossying, which was good.
LOADS of advertising for Adultwork. That means LOADS more ladies will be interested in being an indie on AW. I hope it will also bring in the men...but I won't hold my breath.
Loving the Madam Becky section ;D
All in all, what a refreshing programme. It actually gave the facts, didn't pretend that prostitution is illegal, dealt with issues AND problems.
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Yes but highlighting issues and problems to who and for what reason? Majority of people don't know we exist and most don't want to or even really care?
Shock horror its illegal to solicit in public but not online? I bet the mothers, fathers, wives and girlfriends will be lobbying their MPs to legalise brothels?
So its now ok to outline how to advertise, rent an apartment and buy the necessary tools to whore yourself out on a channel catering to young people? Working as an indie can be just as dangerous as working on the street if you don't know what you are doing. That part didn't sit well with me at all.
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That part didn't sit well with me at all.
Nor me. And neither did the cross section of clients. I hardly ever see the kind of guys that they interviewed.
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Yes I was worried how they focused on how much money she was making, as if it was standard and didnt require lots of hard work, just a couple of hours a day at lunch time they made it look like.
No focus on how to run your business safely or the problems you often run into. Made it all look far too easy. This could lure some people into doing it when they have no idea what is involved to keep yourself safe.
Was rather pissed off I couldnt get into my aw account whilst it was on as well... hate to think how many new cammers there are going to be :FF
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Yes overall I thought it better than any other programs
Ah, and now we're onto webcamming. Not really prossying, is it :-\ But SHIT this lady gets ?4k a month from sex/adultwork - and then shows ?89k in 2 years from just webcamming alone!!! :o But later CHarlotte did speak positively about prossying, which was good.
What they failed to mention was that the ?89,000 that she showed was not the amount that she actually banked as AW take at least 30% of that and there is an extra percentage for webcamming.
Sarah x x x
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Yes overall I thought it better than any other programs
Ah, and now we're onto webcamming. Not really prossying, is it :-\ But SHIT this lady gets ?4k a month from sex/adultwork - and then shows ?89k in 2 years from just webcamming alone!!! :o But later CHarlotte did speak positively about prossying, which was good.
What they failed to mention was that the ?89,000 that she showed was not the amount that she actually banked as AW take at least 30% of that and there is an extra percentage for webcamming.
Sarah x x x
I was about to say the same, still a very good wage but once you do the sums, not as much as it might look.
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couldn't watch this one - sounds like I missed out and it was (will wonders never cease?) fair and balanced? I really am getting increasingly irate with womens hour though - serves me right for being a R4 addict. More exponents of the 'you are all victims even if you don't realise it' theory this morning! Grrr!
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Yes overall I thought it better than any other programs
Ah, and now we're onto webcamming. Not really prossying, is it :-\ But SHIT this lady gets ?4k a month from sex/adultwork - and then shows ?89k in 2 years from just webcamming alone!!! :o But later CHarlotte did speak positively about prossying, which was good.
What they failed to mention was that the ?89,000 that she showed was not the amount that she actually banked as AW take at least 30% of that and there is an extra percentage for webcamming.
Sarah x x x
I was about to say the same, still a very good wage but once you do the sums, not as much as it might look.
I actually meant that ?89k just from webcamming in 2 years means she's doing something right for the customers - I've been camming about a year longer and would love all my numbers to look as healthy!
Also, yes, we all know the amount she banks is 30%+ lower than that total, but then you could say the same about all her expenses. Once all her legit expenses have gone through the books, that ?89k will be lower anyway.
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I actually meant that ?89k just from webcamming in 2 years means she's doing something right for the customers - I've been camming about a year longer and would love all my numbers to look as healthy!
Also, yes, we all know the amount she banks is 30%+ lower than that total, but then you could say the same about all her expenses. Once all her legit expenses have gone through the books, that ?89k will be lower anyway.
As you say, we all know.... But the people watching the program may not and some girls complain that after such a program is put out there is an influx of new girls trying to earn a living from web camming. The program makes it look very easy, just put yourself on Adultwork and earn ?89k in a couple of years.
The reality is far different, take 36% from the ?89K and you are left with just short of ?57,000 then take away your other expenses and the amount you have to pay in tax and what have you left for 2 years work? Louise is doing something right and probably working hard promoting herself to take the money she makes. But new girls entering the business can feel disillusioned when they realise it is not as easy as it was made out to be.
Webcamming can be the stepping stone to prostitution, a girl who finds herself on Adultwork doing webcamming and not earning what she anticipated may be tempted to turn to prostitution, something she may never have ever considered before and she may not be mentally suitable to do so, not forgetting the risks of entering into such a career with no experience of the dangers out there.
Overall the program was far better than most.
Sarah x x x
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I thought it was very good relative to the C4-esque crap that is rolled out. My only points were that they could have emphasised that you spend a lot of time actually running your business, it doesn't fall into your lap, and they should have tried to find typical-age clients - there was a massive emphasis on young people.
Oh and one of the young fellas, the one with the buddy who she sat and spoke to in their flat, he was on Channel 4's Date my pornstar doc - the conclusion of which is that he really wants nothing more to do with porn and the sex industry because he felt awful for the women. I am 99% sure it is him! That annoyed me because if you're going to do a documentary you should vet your interviewees a bit better so holes can't be picked in what you're creating.
I think on the whole it was a nice respite from all this Mary Honeyball poop going on at the moment.
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Interestingly, the initial voiceover picks 80,000 as the figure. It'd be better to give a range and acknowledge that no-one really knows.
There was a better programme on Prague recently, so I wonder why this one bothered.
The four students section was awful.
Unlike some of the others, they're very happy to plug AW, aren't they? At least once, they fail to blur the on screen site name too. The BBC over-plug Facebook and Twitter, perhaps one day it will be '..and if you'd like to have sex with X, see their AW profile!' :)
I like the little sneer when she says 'porn star experience' :)
They also blur the Twitter account name, but not the name.. or the pic of her licking something phallic.
Nice showing the ignorance around the law.
Hello Shelly :)
I wonder if the words of Chris Armitt, the Merseyside police officer in charge of policy, will be quoted in a court case or two regarding what the police see as ok. It'd would also have been more interesting to get him in a debate with his equivalent in Scotland, for example.
Nothing at all about male and trans escorts...
...and it would have been really good if the programme or the website mentioned support and info places like here. Because there will be some more people starting without a clue.
they should have tried to find typical-age clients - there was a massive emphasis on young people.
This was clearly the spin they'd decided on.
Oh and one of the young fellas, the one with the buddy who she sat and spoke to in their flat, he was on Channel 4's Date my pornstar doc .. I am 99% sure it is him! That annoyed me because if you're going to do a documentary you should vet your interviewees a bit better so holes can't be picked in what you're creating.
Alas, when a programme is done on anything, the young researchers tend to go for the 'round up the usual suspects' approach. It's the only way to explain how Becky gets on TV :)
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I just had a client, he said he saw the program last night, and wanted to try this out for the first time ;D
Nice advertising or what ;)
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Haha awesome!
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I've definitely had a lot more emails from younger members with zero feedback and lacking in escort etiquette! Lot's of 'hi sexy, I'm really horny right now, where r u?' or one just now 'you sexy and hot can I have some nice face pic and videos pls', sort of thing.
They must feel like kids in a candy store after discovering AW, LOL!
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I've definitely had a lot more emails from younger members with zero feedback and lacking in escort etiquette! Lot's of 'hi sexy, I'm really horny right now, where r u?' or one just now 'you sexy and hot can I have some nice face pic and videos pls', sort of thing.
Tuesday was full of time-wasters on the phone, lots of idiot text messages, far more than usual, in general it was busier and I saw more younger guys.
Sarah x x x
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Just watched the BBC Three documentary hosted by Billie JD Porter about prostitution.
It was more fair and unbiased than most of these documentary types but still us boring, chubby, middle of the road girls are being ignored lol! I would have been interested to see a student funding her way through studies (like me and many others!) Maybe us kind are not so willing to go on TV!
A nice coupld of plugs for AW too, just in time for the sunny weather! KERRR-CHIINGG!!
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I just had a client, he said he saw the program last night, and wanted to try this out for the first time ;D
Nice advertising or what ;)
That's true but How about the huge amount of new ladies starting ? Every time escorts publicly disclose it's huge earning potential more and more woman become escorts. I used to know a women who would constantly complain about how slow she was and complain about all the new competition and then tell everyone about how good the escorting business was and just create more competition for herself. My question is this... Why would someone who finds a good business must then tell the world about it ,so it can become saturated , create more competition and then loose it's earning potential ? Escorts used to demand far more money in the past then they do now and that's due to the sheer amount of girls who have been attracted to the industry buy the women who told them about it? Just an observation....
If escorts stopped telling people how " great " the business is then maybe they would stop attracting more competition for themselves. I would be interested to hear other peoples opinions about this?
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I just had a client, he said he saw the program last night, and wanted to try this out for the first time ;D
Nice advertising or what ;)
That's true but How about the huge amount of new ladies starting ? Every time escorts publicly disclose it's huge earning potential more and more woman become escorts. I used to know a women who would constantly complain about how slow she was and complain about all the new competition and then tell everyone about how good the escorting business was and just create more competition for herself. My question is this... Why would someone who finds a good business must then tell the world about it ,so it can become saturated , create more competition and then loose it's earning potential ? Escorts used to demand far more money in the past then they do now and that's due to the sheer amount of girls who have been attracted to the industry buy the women who told them about it? Just an observation....
If escorts stopped telling people how " great " the business is then maybe they would stop attracting more competition for themselves. I would be interested to hear other peoples opinions about this?
I agree. From a business perspective it makes no sense. Unless I'm missing something. I'm happy with escorting being something that isn't considered "the norm" it means less competition and more clients, the fact that it's something secretive makes it more exciting and appeals to myself and to clients. Obviously I wouldn't abandon someone who wanted to be an escort as I'd hate to see anyone get in trouble in this industry i.e the ?1200 overnight London guy.
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Yes but it is only a percentage of people that actually are able to stick with the job it sounds like easy money but it's not.
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@escortxxx
The people that go on Tv shows are the people that want their "15 minutes of fame".
Publicity will always attract new clients as well as working girls, some punters will have a bad experience and some girls will also decide it is not for them. There will always be new girls starting to work as escorts as well as others that give up, but in the long term the numbers of escorts will naturally increase as will the amount of punters.
When things are quiet it is usually down to the amount of money people have in their pocket, punting is not cheap and I am not sure how many can really afford to pay such high prices, so often and you are bound to lose clients or not see them as often.
Marketing is the key to keeping yourself busy, the more you advertise / promote yourself the busier you should be. Some people get on with making themselves busy others are busy moaning how quiet it is.
Fundamental business ethics apply, keep your customer happy so they return, advertise and attract new customers.
Sarah x x x
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@escortxxx
The people that go on Tv shows are the people that want their "15 minutes of fame".
Publicity will always attract new clients as well as working girls, some punters will have a bad experience and some girls will also decide it is not for them. There will always be new girls starting to work as escorts as well as others that give up, but in the long term the numbers of escorts will naturally increase as will the amount of punters.
When things are quiet it is usually down to the amount of money people have in their pocket, punting is not cheap and I am not sure how many can really afford to pay such high prices, so often and you are bound to lose clients or not see them as often.
Marketing is the key to keeping yourself busy, the more you advertise / promote yourself the busier you should be. Some people get on with making themselves busy others are busy moaning how quiet it is.
Fundamental business ethics apply, keep your customer happy so they return, advertise and attract new customers.
Sarah x x x
That's all very true and obvious to professional escorts but actually The point and question simply was....
If you find a good business what's the sense in telling everyone about it and bringing it to their attention in the first place if they are unaware the business idea is a good one or even exists. Advertising to clients is completely separate. You don't tell clients " I make shit loads of money escorting" and clients don't run home get their photos done, stick a pair of seemed stockings on and call themselves an escort.
Highlighting and making potential competitors in business aware of an industry that before you told them about , they knew nothing about surely makes no business sense whatsoever. If a reputable business has a money making idea they keep it quiet for a reason.
This is why the glamour industry doesn't pay well any more , some girls even pay magazines to be on their cover now when they used to be paid ... and porn work is virtually non existent in Britain ask any porn star and they will tell you, most will go to LA now .... The girls who are busy are NOT earning what they once were, they will not be paid the rates they used to because the market is saturated with girls who charge CHEAP rates. that's another reason why lots of models have turned to escorting. All the girls wanted to do it and now the industry isn't even a viable business any more. Girls would under cut each other's prices due to fear, others would work free for the " fame " I remember when you would get ?900 a day for model promo work. You would be lucky to be paid ?100 a day now. And punters who are moaning about " high prices" are trying to manipulate weak women to lower their prices for their benefit. Most Men will always pay for sex and if there was a legal national lower rate standard of even ?500 an hour .... They would find it! They would have to and that would be the price of it. People moan about the cost of smoking... They still by fags and a few stop smoking that's life. I can't afford a rolls Royce so I can't buy one... Tough shit, SEX is not a right , nor is a nice car. Plus Many men are quite happy paying ?1000 an hour, the world is a big place. Some men would be disgusted at paying that and other men would be equally disgusted at the men who " pay so little" there are after all some women charging 25,000 for overnights after all. It doesn't matter how busy you are if the rates are shit due to saturation. I suppose it depends on what you want to earn for being in the sex industry and what your self worth is. I was shocked to find out that some babe TV hosts ( mainly the newer ones who know no better ) are on as little as ?60 for 8 hours! It used to be hundreds of pounds a night! Rates for escorting on average have dropped and providers have increased too.
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Happyhappyjoyjoy - good point!
HollyH - totally agree !
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@escortxxx
The answer to your question was in the first line of my reply - The people that go on Tv shows are the people that want their "15 minutes of fame". - That is why they do it....
In regards to anybody in business telling other how much they make this is in fact dome each and every day in life by most people in a successful business. They live in bigger houses, drive more expensive cars and generally have a much better standard of living. You will have probably spotted a few of them driving the Rolls Royce you cannot afford....
The modelling world is completely different from being an escort and there are different levels of modelling, from saturated Page 3 models to porn. Some girls who would be happy to do hardcore porn shoots would not consider escort work.
As for escorting, as happyhappyjoyjoy said "it sounds like easy money but it's not" and you can read on many forums how some girls are struggling to make it work.
Sarah x x x
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@escortxxx
The answer to your question was in the first line of my reply - The people that go on Tv shows are the people that want their "15 minutes of fame". - That is why they do it....
In regards to anybody in business telling other how much they make this is in fact dome each and every day in life by most people in a successful business. They live in bigger houses, drive more expensive cars and generally have a much better standard of living. You will have probably spotted a few of them driving the Rolls Royce you cannot afford....
The modelling world is completely different from being an escort and there are different levels of modelling, from saturated Page 3 models to porn. Some girls who would be happy to do hardcore porn shoots would not consider escort work.
As for escorting, as happyhappyjoyjoy said "it sounds like easy money but it's not" and you can read on many forums how some girls are struggling to make it work.
Sarah x x x
And my point is that by them doing that " their 15 minutes of fame" can it bring harm to the industry also? You haven't actually had an opinion on that which was the whole point of the post.
Happyhappyjojo offered a very relevant point pointing out that of the new influx of ladies how many actually stay which I found interesting to ponder on and maybe it doesn't bring as much harm as originally thought if you equate it to new custom that will stay.
With regards to people with money...They may show they have money but that doesn't mean that they give their business secrets away. That is my point! People who drive nice cars ( probably most of the successful escorts on here including myself ) and have big properties ( like allot of successful escorts ) of them , the professional business women don't usually go around telling people to join up in an industry they no nothing about. Most keep their business to themselves .I mean , why wouldn't they? as it's an industry that has no barrier to entry. It doesn't seem to make business sense.
In regards to " the rolls Royce I can't afford lol"
let me clarify, I spent allot more then a Rolls Royce on my last property investment because Its a better investment and makes better Business sense. Technically speaking I could have afforded the rolls but I prefer long term security and investments first ;) plus I have a very nice car already that wasn't 200,000 to buy :) the rolls can wait lol... I would rather by a few more houses first.
There are huge similarities to modelling and escorting one HUGE thing being there is no barrier to entry, most other industries don't have that problem the second is self promotion / agency promotion the third being self employed. The list goes on and I know from personal experience. ps. Of course some porn stars don't escort , I didn't say all of them did but check out Some of the main agencies and you will find MOST porn stars offering escort services there. Have you had modelling experience and are you speaking from personal experience?
Ps I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with your response that was trying its hardest to be condescending ? I want the industry to be good for everyone here. By highlighting what I've observed May be of some help to us all and anything relevant I can learn I gladly welcome. Stay Positive ;)
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I think the point of the programme was to show that escorting isn't a bad thing.
Had a young guy last week, and he said that he watched and was happy to hear about AW, as he knew he couldn't afford a "high class " and thought that was nothing in between high class and " drugged or trafficked girls"
I would never say to any girl to start working, even that I do like what I do and make a good living out of it I know the lows of the job, and I am sure is not for many people...
I didn't like the bit that made it it sound that this is so easy, eg little sex.... I do different things, and sometimes is quite hard work, in the beginning I just couldn't understand why guys wanted me to be bad with them, kick them all other hard stuff...finally I managed to open my mind and understand that people like different things...
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@ escortxxx - Personally I do not feel that there is any harm in what these people do, which I thought was clear by the answer I gave..
When questioning the actions of others it would be very easy to question forums such as this, all people present are here to help others which is in contradiction to your point. Advice is given on how to make more from the work we do, so why do we share this information amongst ourselves if it can be so detrimental to our own business?
One thing that I did learn last year was that to update your profile on Adultwork to the top of the listing you had to change a word or two, this has been mentioned again on this forum and is very helpful to others. The person concerned was not worried about sharing this info, but could have kept it to themselves. This would appear to be against your principles of keeping "business secrets" secret.
And should others encourage a few more to start escorting then they too will be welcome and advice to newbies will be given, to help them make the most from their chosen career as well as to advise on the dangers.
I see no downside to this and nor should anybody else. Should people feel threatened by it then revert back to my first answer which is spend more time marketing yourself and pleasing the clients you have. And the great thing about such a forum as this is, that should you have problems, you can get help and advice from many individuals who are happy to share with you.
Sarah x x x
PS Sorry if you feel I was being condescending, forum replies can sometimes feel blunt and harsh but are not always meant that way
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I haven't watched the documentary, but I echo the comments made by sexygirl10's client. I never would have thought there was such a thing as an 'independent escort'. When I was 20, I contemplated escorting and went as far as finding an agency in the phone book, met the owner for a coffee and she asked me what I wanted to use as a work name. I was completely baffled by the whole thing. She looked at me and said "well you really look like a ... " So years later, that stuck in my mind, and it became my working name.
I knew parlours existed and I knew escort agencies existed. I knew that it wasn't unheard of for lapdance bars to offer extras. And of course, the street scene. But I genuinely had no idea there was such a thing as an 'independent' until a friend who worked as a PSO introduced me to AW.
I couldn't have handled escorting at 20, I was not thick skinned enough to deal with it and my overwhelming shyness would have gone against me. Plus I didn't have the same cynicism to life that I think can be useful in this line of work - being private, keeping yourself to yourself, realising that some people are just arseholes and its nothing personal... Now I can say escorting has benefited my life well, not just financially, but its made me extremely confident and self assured. Nowadays I think if someone said something nasty about my weight or looks its more a reflection on them than it is me. But I know at 20 I couldn't have handled a lot of it. At 20 I would have probably felt pretty used and objectified. I was way too innocent at 20.
I'm pretty sure that any time something comes on TV that doesn't portray the pay for sex industry in a negative light, there will be a spike in people thinking "I could do that". Whether or not they can deal with it is another matter - double lives, secrecy, safety, the possible changes to how they view sex, relationships and morality... I look at sex and sexual morality very differently now. I'm not jaded, but I don't see things quite so black and white. And then there's plenty of long time escorts that probably don't ever feel it noticeably change them. As with everything in the sex industry... your mileage may vary.
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I agree that the main point of that documentary was lots of free publicity for already established SW's and to me opening up a whole new world of internet sex to an 18 to 25 year old demographic.
Whether the makers of the documentary were aware of that Im not sure.
I also think she knew that as she is doing exceptionally well making the money she has on webcam and through escorting, she has nothing to worry about as no amount of newbies will ever have an impact on what shes earning. But the curious males will undoubtedly bring in more coins...for her
CAPITALISIM is the reason why goods and services over time decrease in price in any business or market unless of course its classed as a luxury product or creates a niche market. Capitalism and the free market ensures that what was once reserved for a select group at a high price will then lower in price so that the masses can also enjoy it at a price they can afford.
The sex industry is a business which like most is dictated by men. If men are taking advantage of young inexperienced girls in the glamour business (hands up I know nothing about glamour work so Im only guessing here and I maybe wrong) then perhaps there should have been some guidance provided by the more experienced to protect them and also it seems that would have benefited themselves in the long run.
This business is very tough and I would not want any young woman or man to come into it without proper support or guidance. I also could not have done this in my early 20's smh at the thought.
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@ escortxxx - Personally I do not feel that there is any harm in what these people do, which I thought was clear by the answer I gave..
When questioning the actions of others it would be very easy to question forums such as this, all people present are here to help others which is in contradiction to your point. Advice is given on how to make more from the work we do, so why do we share this information amongst ourselves if it can be so detrimental to our own business?
One thing that I did learn last year was that to update your profile on Adultwork to the top of the listing you had to change a word or two, this has been mentioned again on this forum and is very helpful to others. The person concerned was not worried about sharing this info, but could have kept it to themselves. This would appear to be against your principles of keeping "business secrets" secret.
And should others encourage a few more to start escorting then they too will be welcome and advice to newbies will be given, to help them make the most from their chosen career as well as to advise on the dangers.
I see no downside to this and nor should anybody else. Should people feel threatened by it then revert back to my first answer which is spend more time marketing yourself and pleasing the clients you have. And the great thing about such a forum as this is, that should you have problems, you can get help and advice from many individuals who are happy to share with you.
Sarah x x x
PS Sorry if you feel I was being condescending, forum replies can sometimes feel blunt and harsh but are not always meant that way
You miss my point AGAIN ::) I wasn't suggesting NOT helping other escorts or people who have already decided themselves to become escorts on forums like these or in person.
My point was Telling the world about something they know nothing about to make them become aware of it.
Which is a very interesting question driven from a business perspective not one of threat or any personal insecurities. This was always meant to remain a general and thought provoking question. I can see that you have some trouble understanding something I'm trying to explain as simply as possible I hope you can understand now. You have kept missing my point and bringing up something completely different every time I have posted. I did Not say helping other established escorts was a bad idea or a good one. That's irrelevant to what I was asking.
My question about whether or not people who know nothing about escorting should be made aware the very business exists and whether the concept is a good one... Which you answered with.. " it's does no harm" but I'm still not certain you've quite understood the question because then you go onto talk about something which has nothing to do with what I said.
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I agree that the main point of that documentary was lots of free publicity for already established SW's and to me opening up a whole new world of internet sex to an 18 to 25 year old demographic.
Maybe it was free publicity for a small number of SW's, but that wasn't the point of the programme. It was a more realistic view of the business than you normally see, although I think it concentrated far too much on the lower age range. Very few clients are as young as the the young men featured on the programme. If it encourages more men to consider paying for sex as an option then it's good for us, and probably them too. I've had several new enquiries from guys who have watched it.
The sex industry is a business which like most is dictated by men.
I disagree. This is the one line of work I know of that can exclude the involvement of men except as customers. In that sense it is quite empowering.
This business is very tough and I would not want any young woman or man to come into it without proper support or guidance. I also could not have done this in my early 20's smh at the thought.
It depends on what your interest and motivation is. I was younger and it was something I wanted to do for a long time before I even started. Others can't cope with it and never would be able to.
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My point was Telling the world about something they know nothing about to make them become aware of it.
What planet do these people live on? If they do not know escorts & prostitution exists?
I actually thought that your point was making people aware of how much money could be made from doing it?
In which case you are right, I did miss your point.
Sarah x x x
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Quite, how many people were not aware of prostitution before watching this?
They may well not have been aware of a busy independent sector, probably because it is so relatively new and coverage of prostitution is usually about street work / agencies / brothels. There is also a very high level of ignorance around what's legal and what isn't, again largely because of the issues around street work. Ditto around clients.
Does an increase in people doing the work mean there's pressure on existing workers? Of course, but that's markets for you. Your mothers / grannies probably complained when more women in relationships did oral, because it affected how much they could earn :) If you cannot come up with reasons why people should see you beyond 'I will have sex with you if you pay me', you have other problems.
Many of them won't be around for long. The average life expectancy of an AW escort profile has always been around a couple of weeks - an awful lot presumably decide that it is not for them, hopefully without being horribly hurt or ripped-off in the process.
I would have been a lot happier if they didn't bother with Becky and had something on online communities instead.
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Do you think its still available on iplayer? I'm quite fascinated by it now.
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My point was Telling the world about something they know nothing about to make them become aware of it.
What planet do these people live on? If they do not know escorts & prostitution exists?
I actually thought that your point was making people aware of how much money could be made from doing it?
In which case you are right, I did miss your point.
Sarah x x x
The public may know prostitution exists but they are still ignorant and judgemental towards the industry and don't realise it's a valuable and perfectly fine business if run properly, and despite being a very successful escort and personally holding the view that their is nothing wrong with escorting why would I shout it to the world? To attract more women to it? Why? How does that affect my business and earnings? Im not here to change the world I'm not here to profit from others escorting, I'm not a hobbyist after a bit of tax free change. I'm a professional who pays taxes and is set on making a very good living from escorting and is!
And I'm not here to damage mine or any other escorts business by bringing unnecessary competition to it. Why tell the world about a good business? Why? So I can destroy another industry just like stripping and modelling! What sense does that make? Why not let the ignorant hold a belief that's wrong so you can make more money and not have to work harder for it so successful escorts can continue investing in their futures, buying houses and making Great business choices.
Escorts can love their jobs but they still need to be paid and you can't give the same quality service if you are working all the hours under the sun and spending more unnecessary hours marketing if when all you have to do is shut up and get on with your work.
If women are not interested In taking this business seriously or do it just for sex then go and get a normal job and go swinging! This is a profession and one that will end up being tainted by amateurs. Clients want get a quality service and will feel short changed and so will escorts.
I used to earn ?1500 easily lap dancing in less then 8 hours. The industry's died, an influx of cheaper women and more of them have destroyed the industry ASK ANY DANCER, The same happened with modelling ASK ANY MODEL. I know from years of dancing and modelling experience first hand! Even after the show aired there were twitter comments to a women from the show along the lines of " thanks so much you've inspired me to join the industry" that's all very well if your not that bothered about business but you have choices in life and you can choose to make great ones which won't lead to the destruction of your own business and fellow escorts if your smart.
Now it's starting with escorting , trust me! I know from experience. At least models needed a certain look, escorting there is even less barrier to entry. You can be out of shape, offering bareback , have very little intelligence, not vet clients , charge a pittance and still their will be a lower end market for that.
If you take away the STIGMA of escorting and make it an acceptable career choice for women everywhere there will be more escorts and the rates will drop, the work will drop. Now I'm asking you... To what benefit do you see from saying " hey women everywhere come and join my industry and make a great living from it" BUSINESS WISE , what do you gain???? And what could you potentionaly loose???
Why do you think PATENTS exist? Business people patent ideas of value for a reason! For good business reasons.
Do you want to spend more hours and money marketing yourself if it could be avoided just by keeping quiet about the business and not creating more and more providers that would have otherwise been kept in the dark?
Maybe this is your hobby or perhaps you do this for some spare change or perhaps you want to fight some moral war or maybe you are just unaware of the harm is causes telling all the women in the world about what a good business escorting is. But I do this job for the great financial and social rewards it brings and if you were a true business women you would see the business sense in everything I've said.
And as for marketing ... Marketing yourself harder, longer for a higher price in an industry that has an influx of more and more women at cheaper and cheaper rates won't help when the problem gets to big it's time that is better spent earning. You will be spending too much time advertising and not enough offering a superb experience to clients. Their are certain type of Men who already target weak women who are now selling sex for as little as ?50 bareback because they would never be able to get paid even ?150 now to the sheer amount of people doing the job. Women feel threatened when they are quiet, what do they do... Most inexperienced ones will lower their price and soon it becomes the norm.
There are only so many hours in a day so if you worked all the hours under the sun at a low rate and you were "busy" you would still earn less then if you charged more in an industry with less providers in it.
If you had a choice would you rather be in a choice 1 in 4 or 1 in 40? Supermarket products pay more to be at the end of an aisle for this reason so the consumer has less choice out of which products they purchase and their product has more chance of being purchased.
You can choose to earn a thousand in a day and charge a decent rate or you can earn less then half that rate a day and can attribute to the demise of an industry. To me it's a simple choice. If you want an example of this I can go back to the reference I made with models and dancers. Girls are lucky now if they make ?200 a night and remember it was only a few years back I could make ten times the amount on a great night when less girls worked.
Do you want to be earning good money in an industry that's thriving or less money and destroying an industry at the same time and that's my point.
Keep shouting about an industry, get desperate, lower your rates, work harder for less money then that's up to you. But I choose not to draw unnecessary attention, work less and earn more!
Keeping clients happy is one thing, if they are worthy of that and are good people but then there are creeps who will try and take advantage of the fact their are more and more providers and inexperienced providers and of course you shouldn't keep them happy. " oh the girl down the road charges ? 50 for bareback..." You should show them the door. Clients on the whole are looking for value for money. You cannot give a client value for money if you are overworked in sitting at your computer marketing yourself.
Why would you choose to bring more women into an industry knowing it will destroy it if there is NO NEED and NOTHING to gain from it WHY create a problem that ISNT there is my point. It's NOT a question of marketing anyway that's irrelevant it's about NOT CREATING A PROBLEM WHERE THERE isn't one in the first place, Not trying your hardest and using unnecessary energy rectifying one that exists.
This is meant to be a forum to help escorts with their business and that's why I posted. I've seen the harm it causes first hand. Shouting about our industry and saying " hey girls come and join in " will do harm to the business of All the escorts on here.
I said it would happen with modelling and it did, I said it would happen with dancing and it did and mark my words , they way things are going it will happen with escorting if nothing changes. I'm just happy I'm invested.
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Quite, how many people were not aware of prostitution before watching this?
They may well not have been aware of a busy independent sector, probably because it is so relatively new and coverage of prostitution is usually about street work / agencies / brothels. There is also a very high level of ignorance around what's legal and what isn't, again largely because of the issues around street work. Ditto around clients.
Does an increase in people doing the work mean there's pressure on existing workers? Of course, but that's markets for you. Your mothers / grannies probably complained when more women in relationships did oral, because it affected how much they could earn :) If you cannot come up with reasons why people should see you beyond 'I will have sex with you if you pay me', you have other problems.
Many of them won't be around for long. The average life expectancy of an AW escort profile has always been around a couple of weeks - an awful lot presumably decide that it is not for them, hopefully without being horribly hurt or ripped-off in the process.
I would have been a lot happier if they didn't bother with Becky and had something on online communities instead.
I totally agree with everything said here and yes if there is an influx , like in all business the best survival is having a USP and having substance. But I was simply asking why if it has no business sense do current service providers need to shout about how great the business earning potentional is for escorts and invite others to join an industry and create competition when there was never any good reason to do so. Are they simply unaware of the unnecessary harm it brings not to mention danger to the new inexperienced girls joining. It's so careless. They will then have to work harder , they are helping destroy an industry and potentially opening up dangerous situations to vulnerable inexperienced women ultimately.
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Hi Roseana
By sex industry I meant the entire industry so Pornographic films. Pornographic magazines, internet sites Stripclubs, Lap dancing clubs, agents ect. The entire industry not just independent escorting.
Also if earning ?90,000 in two years on direct cam and clearing over ?1000 in profit after a 3 day tour is normal and realistic I think I need to take some tips from you lol!
When I was younger I wanted to be a doctor, then a nurse actually many things but never a prostitute but hey each to their own I guess?
And In a way I can see where Escortxxx is coming from as I also thought it was a very careless documentary. Why glamourize this work to the young audience?
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I see escortxxx's point to a degree - I started escorting when I lost my part time job in the recession. I had no other means of being able to support myself so I either quit my degree, or turned to this. I know some other people would say "oh bar work" or other similar suggestions, but I had a good income on my part time job. Better than the same hours in a bar. Any other part time job would have affected my study time. Having already taken time out because of the nasty breakdown of a long term relationship, I wasn't prepared to sacrifice any more of my future. I had already worked as a PSO on AW. When you're sat looking at girls advertising ?130 an hour, it becomes more and more tempting.
But with dancing, modelling - they don't involve the act of actually having sex with a stranger for money. I've been to a lot of strip clubs, I haven't been a stripper, but I have availed myself of their services so to speak. I couldn't do their job as it carries a different form of stress that I'm not prepared to tolerate. Modelling I don't know the first thing about so I can't comment, although I know that porn isn't particularly well paid in the UK.
Escorting, on the other hand, is different as you are being paid to allow men who you may find stereotypically unattractive to have sex with you. For some people, sex is an emotional, intimate experience and whilst they may be happy having a one night stand, its a person they found attractive (even just beer goggle attractive). I didn't think I would ever have sex with a man again before I became an escort. For me there is a complete separation - it has no bearing on my personal sex life as there is no boyfriend to come home to, and never will be. My point is, due to the intimacy involved in sex, it isn't something many people could do flippantly as a career choice. I don't think I could do it if I dated men. I admire the women who do, because I sure as hell couldn't.
I love what escorting has brought into my life - the financial security, the confidence, resilience. What I don't love is the deceit, the paranoia, and sometimes, the complete loneliness because I can't have a relationship and do this. I don't even get those little moments like meetingdiversity referred to elsewhere, a fleeting bond and connection with someone, because its not what I would want in my personal life. But thats the bed I made for myself and I just have to put on my big girl pants and deal with it.
For every new escort who comes into the industry seeing pound signs, there is another leaving it because she either can't or won't tolerate the impact it has on other aspects of her life. And for every woman who comes into it, there's another who has realised that she really can't have sex with men she does not find physically attractive. I'm not denying the market is saturated - I joined AW in 2008 as a PSO and back then, you didn't have quite the disgusting content there is now. Last I looked at AW PSO, there was a spike in girls charging much, much lower rates and the topics open for discussion... urgh. Even as an escort, I've noticed the saturation. But I still do well enough to keep me going. I've never felt the need to drop my rates to keep up with the girls who charge ?20-30 an hour less than me. We all have our own niche and USP.
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Even a decade ago, there were people offering oral + sex for a fiver in London. Desperation obviously played a part there, but it's an indication that not everything was rosy in the past.
Go a bit further back, and you'd be in a position where the police would go 'what did you expect' if you reported being attacked / robbed / raped.
It's a market without a big barrier to entry - if you can have anonymous casual sex with men, you can do it for cash. AW is a bigger cause of more people starting up, because it reduces the effort still further.
Doubtless there are agency owners somewhere bemoaning the increased ability of escorts to make money without them, and swapping stories about what life was like prior to the web, or mobiles, or...
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Do you think its still available on iplayer? I'm quite fascinated by it now.
No, it's not. It should be on the usual sources for downloading TV shows though. If you can't find it, let me know.
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Markets are always changing the people who stay afloat yare the people who can adapt to changes. I imagine there were people who were annoyed when internet advertising became more prevalent then the newspapers as they were computer illitrate
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Hi Roseanna
By sex industry I meant the entire industry so Pornographic films. Pornographic magazines, internet sites Stripclubs, Lap dancing clubs, agents ect. The entire industry not just independent escorting.
I've never had anything to do with the sex industry outside escorting, and never will. I also would never work in the kind of places shown which seem to be run by men. So, point taken, even though I think that if prostitution was more accepted there would be a lot less demand for porn etc.
When I was younger I wanted to be a doctor, then a nurse actually many things but never a prostitute but hey each to their own I guess?
I sometimes think there are so many similarities. A lot of nurses do it to support their normal job.
And In a way I can see where Escortxxx is coming from
I do too. If they didn't stress the money it might encourage more men to become clients, which would be good. I had a noticeable increase in newbies calling for a few days after the programme, but it's almost back to normal now. What I really didn't like was the girl who had all the bundles of cash lying around. Sent out completely the wrong message that did.
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I would have been a lot happier if they didn't bother with Becky and had something on online communities instead.
It bugs me a bit that this person has become some sort of industry spokesperson whenever a program about escorting is made. Though I find her very sensible in some programs I have seen, I still feel she has made money out of others doing the actual sex work. I really don't feel it qualifies her to speak about the experiences of sex workers. Then she ?wrote? a book where again she plagiarised quite a few experiences of escorts from various sites and marketed that as her experience, yet again making money out of the sex work others do.
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Yes overall I thought it better than any other programs
Ah, and now we're onto webcamming. Not really prossying, is it :-\ But SHIT this lady gets ?4k a month from sex/adultwork - and then shows ?89k in 2 years from just webcamming alone!!! :o But later CHarlotte did speak positively about prossying, which was good.
What they failed to mention was that the ?89,000 that she showed was not the amount that she actually banked as AW take at least 30% of that and there is an extra percentage for webcamming.
Sarah x x x
Hey sarah
The amount soon was in my transfer history ..... so that was already post 30% xx
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Excellent, that's all sorted out then.
We'll take any further discussion on individual members earnings to PM, please.
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Ladies
I've read most of this thread......
Just to clarify, I didn't do this for 5 mins of fame at all. I wanted to put a positive point of view on escorting and sex work, and show that most of us are educated people who choose to do this for a living and do enjoy it, and its much like any job good days and bad days, some days you wanna quit over days its amazing.
I wanted to changed peoples minds about us sex workers. People think we are all stupid slags who can't do anything else for a living, I'm sure thats true in some cases but not many.
To be honest I didn't even think about the AW publicity I just wanted to show a good light on the job we do.
Yes lots of girls did sign up to adultwork, but if you are worried about that you don't have faith in your own product which is you. Most clients come on adultwork to see a specific girl, in my experience its not all about just seeing some pussy.
I hope some of you enjoyed it, I have learnt there will always be some people who are never happy
MissLouiseKay
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Yes lots of girls did sign up to adultwork, but if you are worried about that you don't have faith in your own product which is you
Welcome LouiseKayXXX
I think you are right, people need to focus on promoting themselves and not how many others are also working.
Sarah x x x
PS Not sure about being able to change peoples minds though...
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Yes lots of girls did sign up to adultwork, but if you are worried about that you don't have faith in your own product which is you
Welcome LouiseKayXXX
I think you are right, people need to focus on promoting themselves and not how many others are also working.
Sarah x x x
PS Not sure about being able to change peoples minds though...
Sarah
I was honestly shocked at the responses I got to the show, yes i got the odd oh i bet your mum is proud stc but i also got some emails where people actually said i had changed their minds.
You are never gonna change everyones mind and i wouldnt want it, but it really is nice to try and put a positive spin on what we do :)
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Sarah
I was honestly shocked at the responses I got to the show, yes i got the odd oh i bet your mum is proud stc but i also got some emails where people actually said i had changed their minds.
You are never gonna change everyones mind and i wouldnt want it, but it really is nice to try and put a positive spin on what we do :)
I thought you came across quite well, but it is not something that I would do myself, my mum would NOT be proud of me....
Sarah x x x
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Ooo I feel like a famous person joined the discussion lol.
I thought you were fab LouiseKay.
Overall I thought it was a good programme and certainly better than some other webcam/escort programmes. Also anything that helps people understand the law is a good thing.
I'm gonna get my arse online tonight for the influx of young milf hunters lol. X
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Late last night I caught the second half of yet another show about escorts!
Did anyone watch it?
I saw it from the part where they was talking to a girl called Charlotte I think with lots of tattoos. (Her tatts were lovely!)
I liked her and during her scene she made a very valid point about the law not allowing us to work together in flats, when in fact it's safer.
What annoyed me about the show is as per usual they showed the downside by showing the prostitutes who work on the streets and their drug problems etc etc. Why do they always do this?
The other thing that annoyed me was it really went into detail about what's legal and what isn't, i.e. How many people can work in a flat; they actually had a pub quiz!
AW is getting a LOT of air time lately.
Be good to hear what others thought of the show.
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I enjoyed this programme, thanks LouiseKay you also motivated me as I do get sometimes bit bored might start webcam soon ;)
although not as busy as yourself and other ladies, I only work part time.
I get fed up with the negative side of prostitution its not all bad and dirty evil as some would like to portray.
it can be great fun with the right clients :)
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I enjoyed this programme, thanks LouiseKay you also motivated me as I do get sometimes bit bored might start webcam soon ;)
although not as busy as yourself and other ladies, I only work part time.
I get fed up with the negative side of prostitution its not all bad and dirty evil as some would like to portray.
it can be great fun with the right clients :)
I didn't realise this show was so old until my post got merged! ;D
Anyway, she's motivated me too, definitely going to look into doing actual camming. I've been doing DirectIM but it's not that great...
I choose clients wisely so I always have a good time and I don't get problems. I mean we're all smart, we know how to detect trouble makers. I just wish one day they'd just show that it's not like that for everyone! It baffles me why they insist on portraying it like its band of gold!
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I saw it for the first time last night and thought as these things go it was great. I think showing a range of experiences from Louise Kay (who was fab) to the sad story of the Liverpool woman and the Prague brothel worker made it a rounded show and I think that is really important. Not sure we needed Madame Becky showing us how to fold towels though...
It would be irresponsible to show it as all wonderful and light and an easy way of making money- sex workers all have different and experiences so no show could ever really cover it all.
I also think whilst I think women like LouiseKay and others such as Laura Lee and Charlotte Rose do a great job in portraying sex workers as hard workers who enjoy their job they are in a tricky position to talk about the negatives such as stinky men, boundary pushers, being ripped off and times when they may have felt scared and vulnerable because that plays into the hands of the antis....
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I also think whilst I think women like LouiseKay and others such as Laura Lee and Charlotte Rose do a great job in portraying sex workers as hard workers who enjoy their job they are in a tricky position to talk about the negatives such as stinky men, boundary pushers, being ripped off and times when they may have felt scared and vulnerable because that plays into the hands of the antis....
That's because the best argument in favour of us is nothing to do with morals or enjoying the job. First and foremost the conversation should be about which legal models regard our safety the highest. Once we're as protected as we can be by the law, then I might sit around to listen to sex workers talk about how great our job is. Somehow I don't see minimum wage care workers or cleaners having to justify the existence of their jobs because they adore them so much. It's not about whether we like it or not. It's about if we're safe. I wish documentary makers would get their heads around that.
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I also think whilst I think women like LouiseKay and others such as Laura Lee and Charlotte Rose do a great job in portraying sex workers as hard workers who enjoy their job they are in a tricky position to talk about the negatives such as stinky men, boundary pushers, being ripped off and times when they may have felt scared and vulnerable because that plays into the hands of the antis....
That's because the best argument in favour of us is nothing to do with morals or enjoying the job. First and foremost the conversation should be about which legal models regard our safety the highest. Once we're as protected as we can be by the law, then I might sit around to listen to sex workers talk about how great our job is. Somehow I don't see minimum wage care workers or cleaners having to justify the existence of their jobs because they adore them so much. It's not about whether we like it or not. It's about if we're safe. I wish documentary makers would get their heads around that.
You're not wrong, of course safety is the most important thing, but I think that enjoying it is an aspect that needs to be put out there to a degree. So many people believe that no woman could possibly choose to have sex with strange men so therefore it must be wrong and should be banned so I think sex workers who do enjoy it, are not screwed up by having sex with multiple men and who do not feel violated by it play a part in changing minds.
I do also agree that it is frustrating that we need to justify it in comparison to other jobs- personally I could never work with children but I wouldn't go around saying How could anyone choose to work with snotty nosed, noisy, smelly little brats or critisise those who chose to do it in the same way people refer to our work as working with stinky, desperate horrible men.
It's all part of the whole package in changing the sex working laws.
My original point, which I probably didn't articulate especially well is that I think it's hard for those 'out' escorts to talk roundly about the job because any negative is leaped on as a reason why it is so bad.
I'd be interested to know if LouiseKay felt she had to be totally positive when she was filmed so as not to let any 'bad' stuff override what appears to be a really positive experience in the trade for her.
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Ohh not another show, lol...just stumbled on this. Started at 9pm
Fill your boots peeps! ::) :P
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Nah, just the same one repeated yet again - thread merged accordingly.
This is the first time it's been on at the same time as Event Horizon, though (just in case it would ever have crossed my mind to watch it) :D.
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Just realised Amy..doh!