Author Topic: Criminalisation of prostitution (Read 5984 times)

LadyLove · « **Reply #15 on:** 23 October 2012, 05:41:17 pm »

Quote from: Roxychu on 23 October 2012, 05:22:42 pm

This women is probably just passionate about the topic and passion for what we think is right often seems enough so much so we never actually research it. There must be some opinions we all hold that we don't really want to examine and change. She can't know we're not all junkies or diseased if she's not met any real prostitutes, if you never get to see mount Everest all you can know of it is images and books other people have wrote she probably constructed her concept of prostitution from current literature which tbh isn't generally in our favour (we're either portrayed as one dimensional happy hookers or down trodden whores) we are probably more dehumanised by the media than we have ever been by men, and I'll be straight up I think most jobs involving the public involve someone objectifying you sometimes, think of Mc Donalds employers they get spoken to like they're retards.

Presumably she's an intelligent lady, she should be looking behind the stereotypical media images and not just accepting well worn cliches. She is going to try and pass a law which criminalises aspects of prostitution and all she is doing is going into cahoots with organisations which have the same view as herself. The reason she hasn't looked behind the stereotype is that its easier not to and I'm willing to bet she hasn't conversed with anyone holding opposing views.

Talking to everyone here -if this goes through in Scotland then it could be just the beginning. Just because you live in England doesn't mean you should stay unconcerned. I live in Scotland and I'm extremely worried and angry about this, as I believe most Scottish escorts are. I would rather be passionate about things than not feel anything, its a far healthier way to be.

ParisB · « **Reply #16 on:** 23 October 2012, 05:45:35 pm »

then quite frankly if she hasn't met any prostitutes how on earth can what she spout about even be listened to let alone be taken seriously
its not exactly a balanced objective point of view or argument if she hasn't got much to back it up with ( I'm not familiar with who she is or to some extent exactly what she is trying to do ) however i would like to know how she has got so much sway with regards to making it illegal when she is so very one tracked minded which in my mind is pretty dangerous From what i have read she sound a bit unbalanced in her quest to save us all
She dosnt want to listen to anyones point of view apart from her own as she is obviously right and everyone else is wrong and needs saving
it will most likely go the other way where its illegal for men to purchase sex but not for use to sell it which is the way it is in sweden and norway the other way round would be as you say impossible to police

Quote from: Roxychu on 23 October 2012, 05:22:42 pm

There's a reason why prostitution isn't criminalised that's because it's near impossible to regulate what people do in there bedrooms, it's like if homosexuality was re-criminalised where do you find the proof? Ultimately it would just reduce the legal system to a witch hunt. Women who wear fishnets are prostitutes, women with six fingers are witches I mean none of these things could ever consistently stand up in call not unless we're going to regress to an american illegal system, where women can't get pregnant from rape etc.

This women is probably just passionate about the topic and passion for what we think is right often seems enough so much so we never actually research it. There must be some opinions we all hold that we don't really want to examine and change. She can't know we're not all junkies or diseased if she's not met any real prostitutes, if you never get to see mount Everest all you can know of it is images and books other people have wrote she probably constructed her concept of prostitution from current literature which tbh isn't generally in our favour (we're either portrayed as one dimensional happy hookers or down trodden whores) we are probably more dehumanised by the media than we have ever been by men, and I'll be straight up I think most jobs involving the public involve someone objectifying you sometimes, think of Mc Donalds employers they get spoken to like they're retards.

Prostitution is a tricky subject for a lot of women because it is personal, we are segregated in peoples mind, we're sexual women they're wives (ofc this isn't true we're not necessarily better in bed or prettier than wives etc. but the stereotypes show that) how can they relate to what is basically a mythical beast that runs around and 'steals' husbands. In reality we're no threat we don't cause men to cheat often they probably already are, we don't necessarily condone it and we don't want them but that doesn't make us any more part of the sisterhood to women who are already told by the media if you don't do this that and the other your man will leave you. I can see why she imagines us all to be downtrodden or suffering because the only other image the media provides is even more negative.

I dunno I'm not quick to be outraged because I'm sure there were times when I thought escorts and strippers and sex industry workers were devils spawn too.

VioletteUK · « **Reply #17 on:** 23 October 2012, 09:53:44 pm »

The media had sold the image of us being either happy hookers, or sad street walkers, turning trick for drugs. The fact that a group of intelligent, articulate, funny, women, who happen to be sex workers and have chosen to do this as an occupation, is baffling. As well as it blows the stereotype out of the water.

When civvy women are faced with the crack ho image, sympathy forms, when she is faced with one of us, oh dear, the thoughts of concern and fear form. When in reality, we wouldnt want any of their husbands. Seriously bad for business. We have just lost a perfectly good client and gained, a bloody emotional mess cluttering up the sofa. FFS!

ana30 · « **Reply #18 on:** 24 October 2012, 12:45:23 am »

Quote

then quite frankly if she hasn't met any prostitutes how on earth can what she spout about even be listened to let alone be taken seriously
its not exactly a balanced objective point of view or argument if she hasn't got much to back it up with ( I'm not familiar with who she is or to some extent exactly what she is trying to do ) however i would like to know how she has got so much sway with regards to making it illegal when she is so very one tracked minded which in my mind is pretty dangerous From what i have read she sound a bit unbalanced in her quest to save us all

In a patriarchal society (or world dominated by men, both financially and politically) prostitution is a huge support system. I would like to see what would happen with marriages/couples/single men if males were not able to vent their sexual frustration. As a starter the whole marriage institution would go down the drain. Admitting that men are not monogamous by nature and need to "rent" pussy is admitting that the whole patriarchal society is a system based on hypocrisy that doesn't work .And we -as a collective- don't want to admit that. Hence the reason WG's will always be stigmatized but women who marry for money are just fine.

God bless hypocrisy because it pays my bills.

So why are only 4% of the world tops companies CEO's female? So instead of putting women in jail for wanting to support their kids or pay themselves an education what about pushing the laws and change that huge earning gap between men and women? If we had the same political and economic power as men most probably we wouldn't be sucking willies for coin.

So Mrs nazi politician (or whatever your name is). I'm sure you don't read sites like this cause that would mean researching on what the real prostitutes THINK and you have no interest whatsoever as you'd rather stick to your prejudice thoughts that we're all a bunch of trafficked victims and drug addicted sluts with no say as it's what suits your political agenda. I love your condescending "Mommy knows better" attitude but by stigmatizing sex workers you're oppressing women, forcing us into not being able to defend ourselves when were robbed/attacked (happens all the time) and reinforcing that patriarchal macho society with it's very unbalanced economical power between men and women. Certainly you're not doing women any favour. But maybe deeply you don't want to do us women any favour and the prostitution thingy is just a "choice du jour" for pushing your political agenda because it will make you look good on papers and advance your political career. What about choosing another issue, like let's say... sex abuse being covered by the Catholic church?

Oops..too tricky. the church has way too much power and you don't want to get into hot water. Let's be safe and stick with those "dirty whores" buying shoes for their kids because their deadbeat dads decided not to. Those gals have no power and are an easy target.

What about creating laundries and filling them with prostitutes working for the state? We could call them the magdalene laundries 2.0. The tax payer wouldn't pay a dime for my incarceration. We're in recession, and like David Cameron sez: "We're all in this together".

(Sorry, long day)

Sweet-Pleasure · « **Reply #19 on:** 24 October 2012, 10:38:58 am »

I've just had a read of the proposed bill, and Ms Grant actually states that the purpose of the bill is not to crack down on trafficking

Quote

As a by-product other associated serious criminal activities such as
human trafficking, could become less lucrative. Human trafficking is not the
focus of this proposed legislation. However, by tackling demand for the
purpose of prostitution, these activities will be disrupted.

The law would be against the purchase of sex, not selling as it would be unfair to punish prostitutes as

Quote

The majority of those responding to the question of who should be
criminalized agreed that only the purchaser, and not the prostitute, should be
guilty of committing an offence.

The main reasons given were: tackling
demand; acknowledgement that prostitutes are vulnerable and victims of
abuse and; that the proposed Bill would bring indoor prostitution in line with
legislation covering street prostitution where purchasers can be prosecuted.

.

I don't think it would affect the majority of indies working indoors from this paragraph

Quote

36.Prostitution has to be visible to those that purchase sex and therefore for it to
go undetected is not possible. If those who purchase sex are able to find
those selling sex then the law enforcement agencies will also be able to do
so. Whilst this proposal may deter or even diminish street prostitution, indoor
prostitution or prostitution services marketed via Internet and escort services
may continue. However, as the purchaser of sexual activity would be at risk
of prosecution this would result in a decrease in the demand side.

Though she goes on to state

Quote

93.The internet can provide a mechanism for advertising and selling sexual
activity. However, it can also provide a means for law enforcement agencies
to gather intelligence and evidence.

That's the whole top and bottom of it, they want to decrease demand, but if at the moment it's perfectly legal and women are being harassed, I would hate to see the heavy handed way they enforce this law on punters... standing outside a WGs house waiting to arrest her clients on the way in?

Quote

85.In keeping with current legislation, I envisage the maximum penalty for an
offence under the Bill being a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard
scale. However, I am receptive to other arguments, including that the courts
should have the option of imposing more severe penalties ? including,
possibly, a custodial sentence ? in appropriate circumstances

If anyone wishes to contact her (as I have done) the contact details are:

Responses should be submitted by 14 December 2012 and sent to:
Rhoda Grant MSP
Room M1.06
Scottish Parliament
Edinburgh EH99 1SP
Tel: 0131 348 5766
Fax: 0131 348 5767
E-mail: Rhoda.Grant.msp@scottish.parliament.uk

The full bill can be found here -http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_MembersBills/Criminalisation_of_the_Purchase_of_Sex_(2)_Consultation.pdf

But

Quote

116. There are a few situations where not all responses will be published.
This may be for practical reasons: for example, where the number of
submissions we receive does not make this possible or where a large
number of submissions are in very similar terms. In the latter case, only a
list of the names of people and one response who have submitted such
responses would normally be published.
117. In addition, there may be a few situations where I may not choose to
publish your evidence or have to edit it before publication for legal
reasons. This will include any submission which contains defamatory
statements or material. If I think your response potentially contains such
material, usually, this will be returned to you with an invitation to
substantiate the comments or remove them. In these circumstances, if the
response is returned to me and it still contains material which I consider
may be defamatory, it may not be considered and it may have to be destroyed.

Also

Quote

If you wish your response, or any part of it, to be treated as
anonymous, please state this clearly along with the reasons for this. If I
accept the reasons, I will publish it as ?anonymous response?. If I do not
accept the reasons, I will let you know and give you the option of
withdrawing it or submitting it on the normal attributable basis. If your
response is accepted as anonymous, it is your responsibility to ensure that
the content of does not allow you to be identified.

The long and short of it seems to be that they don't want prozzies in Scotland as some are indiscreet and make a bad name for their country, but by that logic should put a stop to big banks, professional football, the royal family, celebs in general and politicians! Oh ho the irony!

ParisB · « **Reply #20 on:** 24 October 2012, 04:33:27 pm »

thats exactly what they do in sweden and norway they ( the police ) will set up fake profiles clients turn up hand over the money and voila no blow job but your name in the papers 30 days in jail or a fine to the tune of whatever your monthly income is

Guys there only want to see girls that are verified by other clients , or have a good track review indies starting out find it very very hard because guys can be sure they are genuine

so while it might be ok for those ladies that are established new girls starting out will find it very hard even mores so than it is now

i have made sure that all my punternet reports that i have and aw reports that i have are saved so that should this happen at least i will have a history behind me to prove to clients that I'm established

LadyLove · « **Reply #21 on:** 24 October 2012, 05:08:36 pm »

Quote from: ParisB on 24 October 2012, 04:33:27 pm

thats exactly what they do in sweden and norway they ( the police ) will set up fake profiles clients turn up hand over the money and voila no blow job but your name in the papers 30 days in jail or a fine to the tune of whatever your monthly income is

So entrapment is legal there. God it all makes me feel quite sick.

Quote from: ParisB on 24 October 2012, 04:33:27 pm

i have made sure that all my punternet reports that i have and aw reports that i have are saved so that should this happen at least i will have a history behind me to prove to clients that I'm established

Thats such a good idea [makes note to self to do that]

LadyLove · « **Reply #22 on:** 24 October 2012, 05:47:01 pm »

These lines from the proposed Bill make me particularly angry, the assumptions are quite breathtaking:

Throughout this consultation the word prostitute will be used to designate a person who is exploited sexually while recognising that a minority of individuals state that they have chosen to be a prostitute.

Prostitution is inherently harmful and dehumanising. The buying of sexual activity is sexual exploitation and is recognised as a form of violence against women. The demand creates a market where vulnerable individuals are compelled and/or forced into a cycle of exploitation that places them, and their families, at risk.

Human trafficking is not the focus of this proposed legislation. However, by tackling demand for the purpose of prostitution, these activities will be disrupted.

Just taking a break from replying to the consultation........

ParisB · « **Reply #23 on:** 24 October 2012, 05:58:11 pm »

i have no idea if it legal or not but cops will sit outside known working flats and guys simply won't enter them
Hotels will ( if they find an escort working from them) ring the police and the police will come and ask you to leave )
its more of a intimidation thing than anything else but it dosnt work guys will carry on seeing escorts but those that are genuine ,reviewed and indie will benefit from the new rules maybe not at first but overall

Quote from: LadyLove on 24 October 2012, 05:08:36 pm

Quote from: ParisB on 24 October 2012, 04:33:27 pm
thats exactly what they do in sweden and norway they ( the police ) will set up fake profiles clients turn up hand over the money and voila no blow job but your name in the papers 30 days in jail or a fine to the tune of whatever your monthly income is

So entrapment is legal there. God it all makes me feel quite sick.

Quote from: ParisB on 24 October 2012, 04:33:27 pm
i have made sure that all my punternet reports that i have and aw reports that i have are saved so that should this happen at least i will have a history behind me to prove to clients that I'm established

Thats such a good idea [makes note to self to do that]

LadyLove · « **Reply #24 on:** 25 October 2012, 06:16:25 pm »

I have just gone through the whole consultation paper again, my head is spinning! But want to make sure I write a good response

I just find it frightening that the 'average' person would probably just accept her version of prostitution as always being about sexual exploitation, often having links with drug use and organised crime. Oh yes and don't forget the fact that the majority of us are unwillingly participating in prostitution, were in care or sexually abused and that we are all victims incapable of making our own choices.

Time for a glass of wine methinks.

Kimmy · « **Reply #25 on:** 27 October 2012, 11:53:47 pm »

Quote from: Sweet-Pleasure on 24 October 2012, 10:38:58 am

I've just had a read of the proposed bill, and Ms Grant actually states that the purpose of the bill is not to crack down on trafficking

Quote
As a by-product other associated serious criminal activities such as
human trafficking, could become less lucrative. Human trafficking is not the
focus of this proposed legislation. However, by tackling demand for the
purpose of prostitution, these activities will be disrupted.

The law would be against the purchase of sex, not selling as it would be unfair to punish prostitutes as
Quote
The majority of those responding to the question of who should be
criminalized agreed that only the purchaser, and not the prostitute, should be
guilty of committing an offence.

The main reasons given were: tackling
demand; acknowledgement that prostitutes are vulnerable and victims of
abuse and; that the proposed Bill would bring indoor prostitution in line with
legislation covering street prostitution where purchasers can be prosecuted.
.

I don't think it would affect the majority of indies working indoors from this paragraph

Quote
36.Prostitution has to be visible to those that purchase sex and therefore for it to
go undetected is not possible. If those who purchase sex are able to find
those selling sex then the law enforcement agencies will also be able to do
so. Whilst this proposal may deter or even diminish street prostitution, indoor
prostitution or prostitution services marketed via Internet and escort services
may continue. However, as the purchaser of sexual activity would be at risk
of prosecution this would result in a decrease in the demand side.

Though she goes on to state

Quote
93.The internet can provide a mechanism for advertising and selling sexual
activity. However, it can also provide a means for law enforcement agencies
to gather intelligence and evidence.

That's the whole top and bottom of it, they want to decrease demand, but if at the moment it's perfectly legal and women are being harassed, I would hate to see the heavy handed way they enforce this law on punters... standing outside a WGs house waiting to arrest her clients on the way in?

Quote
85.In keeping with current legislation, I envisage the maximum penalty for an
offence under the Bill being a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard
scale. However, I am receptive to other arguments, including that the courts
should have the option of imposing more severe penalties ? including,
possibly, a custodial sentence ? in appropriate circumstances

If anyone wishes to contact her (as I have done) the contact details are:

Responses should be submitted by 14 December 2012 and sent to:
Rhoda Grant MSP
Room M1.06
Scottish Parliament
Edinburgh EH99 1SP
Tel: 0131 348 5766
Fax: 0131 348 5767
E-mail: Rhoda.Grant.msp@scottish.parliament.uk

The full bill can be found here -http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_MembersBills/Criminalisation_of_the_Purchase_of_Sex_(2)_Consultation.pdf

But

Quote
116. There are a few situations where not all responses will be published.
This may be for practical reasons: for example, where the number of
submissions we receive does not make this possible or where a large
number of submissions are in very similar terms. In the latter case, only a
list of the names of people and one response who have submitted such
responses would normally be published.
117. In addition, there may be a few situations where I may not choose to
publish your evidence or have to edit it before publication for legal
reasons. This will include any submission which contains defamatory
statements or material. If I think your response potentially contains such
material, usually, this will be returned to you with an invitation to
substantiate the comments or remove them. In these circumstances, if the
response is returned to me and it still contains material which I consider
may be defamatory, it may not be considered and it may have to be destroyed.

Also

Quote
If you wish your response, or any part of it, to be treated as
anonymous, please state this clearly along with the reasons for this. If I
accept the reasons, I will publish it as ?anonymous response?. If I do not
accept the reasons, I will let you know and give you the option of
withdrawing it or submitting it on the normal attributable basis. If your
response is accepted as anonymous, it is your responsibility to ensure that
the content of does not allow you to be identified.

The long and short of it seems to be that they don't want prozzies in Scotland as some are indiscreet and make a bad name for their country, but by that logic should put a stop to big banks, professional football, the royal family, celebs in general and politicians! Oh ho the irony!

I too contacted her and explained how criminalizing our clients will negatively effect our safety, amongst other things and she did reply back with this!

Dear *****

Thank you for your e-mail.

Let me first make clear that I am not seeking to further criminalise prostitutes, your e-mail suggests that you believe that that is my aim. The Consultation document, which I attach for you, makes it clear that I am only consulting on a draft proposal to make the purchase of sex illegal. The document also makes clear the reasons why I am taking this course of action.

I would urge you to read the document and submit a response to the consultation. The document specifies that I am able to protect your anonymity if you decide to make such a response. I am also happy to discuss this further with you if you think that would be helpful.

Kind regards,

Rhoda

Rhoda Grant MSP

Totally ignoring every point I made about how criminalizing the purchase of sex (ie the clients) would damage us, she totally ignored it so I sent another one back explaining in length why this too would effect us- she seems to think if it isnt us who is breaking the law it wont effect us or or safety

In process of responding to the consultation but its a downloadable PDF file (cant be arsed right now)

MsDee · « **Reply #26 on:** 28 October 2012, 09:44:03 am »

Closed minded Bigot comes to mind. I am sorry but this is exactly why i said us writing to her will probably come to no use as she is not interested at all.

LadyLove · « **Reply #27 on:** 28 October 2012, 09:58:08 am »

Yes the consultation is long winded and its a pain in the arse to do; but I would urge as many ladies as possible to respond.

After all, who apart from ourselves, is going to object to it?

If no one objects the this will most likely become law and could well underpin full on criminalisation in Scotland. Then we will be well and truly screwed.

strawberry · « **Reply #28 on:** 28 October 2012, 09:59:12 am »

To me it's a complete waste of tax payers money and time, far better ways to invest those assets.

Pearl · « **Reply #29 on:** 28 October 2012, 07:47:58 pm »

Girls,
The proposed laws done by Mrs Grant were already rejected different times and you should not be surprised at this.
You can just imagine how many politicians, business men and other VIPs (e.g. Rooney) coming from all over the Great Britain have booked at least 1 hour with an escort.... in other words, the stakes are too high to risk... they do not shoot themselves in the feet going along with Mrs Grant's wishes.
So, do not be worried and relax :-)

See also the main SAAFE.info site for more Support And Advice For Escorts

Author Topic: Criminalisation of prostitution (Read 5984 times)

LadyLove

Re: Criminalisation of prostitution

ParisB

Re: Criminalisation of prostitution

VioletteUK

Re: Criminalisation of prostitution

ana30

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Sweet-Pleasure

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ParisB

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LadyLove

Re: Criminalisation of prostitution

LadyLove

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ParisB

Re: Criminalisation of prostitution

LadyLove

Re: Criminalisation of prostitution

Kimmy

Re: Criminalisation of prostitution

MsDee

Re: Criminalisation of prostitution

LadyLove

Re: Criminalisation of prostitution

strawberry

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Pearl

Re: Criminalisation of prostitution